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Old 07-03-2016, 05:20 PM
 
Location: Self explanatory
12,603 posts, read 6,744,796 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
Heaven forbid a Christian website want to keep their membership exclusive to Bible believing Christians. I suppose you think churches should allow gay members as well, right?
You don't think there are gays among the congregations already?

Gay Christians are a thing. Too bad hateful Christians are too.
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Old 07-03-2016, 05:22 PM
 
Location: Arizona
7,505 posts, read 7,500,634 times
Reputation: 24621
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
Heaven forbid a Christian website want to keep their membership exclusive to Bible believing Christians. I suppose you think churches should allow gay members as well, right?
Your church doesn't allow gay members? That's unbelievable. I can see disagreeing with their lifestyle but to not allow them as members?
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Old 07-03-2016, 05:59 PM
 
4,851 posts, read 2,134,543 times
Reputation: 1587
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
So does that mean you are OK with transgressions of rights?


Nobody's rights were transgressed . The gays wanted a service the site did not provide . They sued and won , and now the site is forced by law to alter the products it provides .

You notice how I answer your questions but you studiously avoid mine ? Why is that ?
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Old 07-03-2016, 07:09 PM
 
Location: Minnesota
372 posts, read 1,026,717 times
Reputation: 567
Well I learned something today. As a self identifying cis male pansexual seeking a trans female, I'm being discriminated against, as Christian Mingle has no category for me either.
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Old 07-03-2016, 07:50 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,466,423 times
Reputation: 4559
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallflash View Post
Nobody's rights were transgressed . The gays wanted a service the site did not provide . They sued and won , and now the site is forced by law to alter the products it provides .

You notice how I answer your questions but you studiously avoid mine ? Why is that ?
Which question do you feel is unanswered? I thought I did in post 59.
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Old 07-03-2016, 08:00 PM
 
4,851 posts, read 2,134,543 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
Which question do you feel is unanswered? I thought I did in post 59.


These . I'll give you 2 or 3 . In all cases , as with this dating site, businesses that do cater to the minority are readily available , so the matter is not a lack of options and some hardship obtaining the product on the part of the minority , but rather the fact that the product each wants is not provided by the business they have chosen to demand it from .


1) The baker who makes ready made goods for Christians and Jews but not Muslims , and the Muslim demanding the baker make Muslim products for him. Can and should we force her to, yes or no ?

2) Can gays force a strip club that caters mainly to heterosexual men and possibly a few lesbians, but in any case only has women strippers, to have male strippers for gay men ? If not , why not ?

3) A magazine stand sells porn mags for hetero men and hetero women . A gay man wants it to start stocking gay porn mags for him . If they choose not to , can he sue and force them to because they are discriminating against gays by supplying porn mags to heterosexuals but not gays ?
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Old 07-03-2016, 08:44 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
18,133 posts, read 11,962,584 times
Reputation: 8904
Quote:
Originally Posted by undfan View Post
I got to go with wallfish on this. I'm all for social justice, but this is overreaching. I see no evidence, in the article, that the clients were denied service, just that the services offered didn't meet their needs.
These gay plantiffs get to decide when they feel injustice, not you, me, or wallflash -- and the court gets to decide if their concerns have merit -- not you, me or wallflash.

In this case they got a court to agree, and it isn't the first time this has happened (it happened years ago to eHarmony, although that was a decision at the state level in NJ, they saw the handwriting on the wall, and decided to serve the gay community nationwide). I'm sure this served as a precedent.

I admit that wallflash raises some excellent questions. Why aren't gay-only sites made to serve heterosexuals on the same basis? I gave some potential arguments why, but it may simply boil down to no heterosexuals care to challenge it. I don't know. It is what it is. Societal morality and its enforcement mechanisms, legal and otherwise, aren't perfect. Human interaction is messy and inefficient.

Wallflsh also raises some other valid, if contrived, examples. Can a strip club only put women on stage? Are they discriminating against gay men and perhaps straight women if they don't also put men on stage? Are they catering to lesbians as well as straight men by putting women on stage, such that only gay men or straight women could sue them? Or are they simply discriminating against men by not hiring them to go on stage, and never mind the clientele? The mind reels, I'll admit.

Intuitively I don't see the slippery slope concerns wallflash is voicing to be valid, I suppose because it's one thing to throw the gay community a bone here, one that the wider community outside of a few opportunists may not even care about, and assume from that, that gays care about the similar examples wallflash posited, or that the courts would agree with them if they did. And as I said I'm hampered by not really knowing the law, nor the facts of the case in question and whether some of those facts of law are unique to the dating site scenario for some reason.
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Old 07-03-2016, 09:03 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,466,423 times
Reputation: 4559
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallflash View Post
These . I'll give you 2 or 3 . In all cases , as with this dating site, businesses that do cater to the minority are readily available , so the matter is not a lack of options and some hardship obtaining the product on the part of the minority , but rather the fact that the product each wants is not provided by the business they have chosen to demand it from .


1) The baker who makes ready made goods for Christians and Jews but not Muslims , and the Muslim demanding the baker make Muslim products for him. Can and should we force her to, yes or no ?

2) Can gays force a strip club that caters mainly to heterosexual men and possibly a few lesbians, but in any case only has women strippers, to have male strippers for gay men ? If not , why not ?

3) A magazine stand sells porn mags for hetero men and hetero women . A gay man wants it to start stocking gay porn mags for him . If they choose not to , can he sue and force them to because they are discriminating against gays by supplying porn mags to heterosexuals but not gays ?
The case was decided on Californian anti-discrimination laws, which require businesses to offer ‘full and equal accommodations’ to all people regardless of sexual orientation. Here is a link to that law:

CA Codes (civ:43-53.7)

Known as the Unruh Civil Rights Act, the state law requires “business establishments” to offer “full and equal accommodations” to people regardless of their sexual orientation.


Here is the actual case and ruling:

http://online.wsj.com/public/resourc...ement_2016.pdf

Reading it, it appears this was a settlement proposal that was accepted by the judge. Obviously Spark Network and it's lawyers must have felt that it was better to go this route, as they had no chance of winning the case.


In the case of 1) above, no, because it does not deal with sexual orientation.

In the case of 2) probably not, as the gay men can go when the male strippers are on stage for women.

In the case of 3) I suspect not again, as the gay men can buy the ones for women.

IANAL
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Old 07-03-2016, 09:12 PM
 
4,851 posts, read 2,134,543 times
Reputation: 1587
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
The case was decided on Californian anti-discrimination laws, which require businesses to offer ‘full and equal accommodations’ to all people regardless of sexual orientation. Here is a link to that law:

CA Codes (civ:43-53.7)

Known as the Unruh Civil Rights Act, the state law requires “business establishments” to offer “full and equal accommodations” to people regardless of their sexual orientation.


Here is the actual case and ruling:

http://online.wsj.com/public/resourc...ement_2016.pdf

Reading it, it appears this was a settlement proposal that was accepted by the judge. Obviously Spark Network and it's lawyers must have felt that it was better to go this route, as they had no chance of winning the case.


In the case of 1) above, no, because it does not deal with sexual orientation.

In the case of 2) probably not, as the gay men can go when the male strippers are on stage for women.

In the case of 3) I suspect not again, as the gay men can buy the ones for women.

IANAL

1) Deals with religious discrimination, but I'll drop it to be specific to this debate .

2) There are no male strippers for women or men . It's all women , as most strip clubs for men are . Let's try again.

3) So we agree that there is no basis for discrimination just because ones needs are not catered precisely to by a business . So then what is the basis for the dating site lawsuit , in reality and not the pseudo reality that sees imaginary harm to gay men because they would rather use a site geared to heterosexuals than one geared to homosexuals .
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Old 07-03-2016, 09:32 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,466,423 times
Reputation: 4559
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallflash View Post
1) Deals with religious discrimination, but I'll drop it to be specific to this debate .

2) There are no male strippers for women or men . It's all women , as most strip clubs for men are . Let's try again.

3) So we agree that there is no basis for discrimination just because ones needs are not catered precisely to by a business . So then what is the basis for the dating site lawsuit , in reality and not the pseudo reality that sees imaginary harm to gay men because they would rather use a site geared to heterosexuals than one geared to homosexuals .
As to the reasoning of why the complaint/lawsuit was laid, I will refer you back to the FFRF defending the 1st amendment, and the NRA, the 2nd. Because if one's rights are not defended, one risks those rights being eroded.

You DO believe that all human beings should have the same rights, do you not? Regardless of what the circumstances?

Or do you think there should be exceptions.
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