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Exactly. This is why I have repeatedly asked Pleroo to define the attributes of her god and she won't do it. If she had said at the offset that her god wasn't omnimax there would have been nothing to discuss. It would have been a simple case of...
Q. Why doesn't God prevent suffering.
A. My god can't. He doesn't have the power to do so. He is not Omnimax.
I have a vague and perhaps unfair thought that perhaps this poster is deliberately just not giving us all her info on her own god story so that she can keep telling us we must be wrong and that there really IS at least some kind of god.
I could be wrong but if so, even if it's subconscious, then that's never going to lend itself to any sort of reasonable discussion...period. It simply can't and won't. So I don't know what's expected here... but I did try to answer...given the bit-by-bit information I've been fed about this newly invented god. Not sure if it helped but I gave it a shot.
"What if God can't do all" IS kind of an interesting discussion - when started that way and presented in clear terms - and in fact, I asked this question (basically) myself in a thread from 2013 that's still floating around here, about what if God isn't perfect. But I was pretty clear from the get-go that this was my specific question and that I DIDN'T have some invented parameters of my own about it. Indeed, I wasn't making "this IS what God is" statements at all since the whole point was that I don't know. Now if I were to CREATE my own god story with parameters that made me comfortable because they seemed to fit, that would be a different matter and that thread would have been entirely different, just as this thread would have been entirely different if the original god stated by Finch were some made-up god that wasn't omnimax like Pleroo's invented god isn't.
If we're all just going to throw in "you're wrong because this is how MY god operates" then no...we are never going to get anywhere, full stop. How can we? My God wears a cape, loves Very Berry sorbet and demands that we all sing the chorus of "Morning Train" when we wake up each day. There...now let's try to have a discussion about what THAT god definitely does or doesn't do. It really doesn't work very well, right? Because if I'm just making unfamiliar stuff up out of nowhere then I can say whatever I want but YOU have no idea what to say since it's my imagination doing the talking here.
IMy God wears a cape, loves Very Berry sorbet and demands that we all sing the chorus of "Morning Train" when we wake up each day. There...now let's try to have a discussion about what THAT god definitely does or doesn't do. It really doesn't work very well, right? Because if I'm just making unfamiliar stuff up out of nowhere then I can say whatever I want but YOU have no idea what to say since it's my imagination doing the talking here.
There you have it in a nutshell my old sausage! It is a continuous repetition of...'my god isn't like that. I'm not going to tell you what it is like... but you have to answer questions regarding what it's like..' It's nonsense!
... in addition to how are souls created because the population continues to grow. So is there a waiting room in some ethereal plane somewhere....or is there a soul factory?
yes there are souls not in physical bodies at this time.
it is a choice to incarnate in a human body, and not every soul chooses this.
there are souls who are between incarnations
there are souls who are "done" incarnating in human bodies and are doing other work in other planes, assisting humankind from there.
yes there are also "new souls" being created.
yes there are souls not in physical bodies at this time.
it is a choice to incarnate in a human body, and not every soul chooses this.
there are souls who are between incarnations
there are souls who are "done" incarnating in human bodies and are doing other work in other planes, assisting humankind from there.
yes there are also "new souls" being created.
To be fair, that's your own decision and invention of what god you mean (it's not a god that I've ever heard of, anyway) and the original thread was obviously centered around Christianity, which involves the god of the Bible, since we all know by now (a little too well) which savior Finch is into. In addition, the discussion was already in full swing. This may be what tangled matters. Making up your own god and your own parameters and then asking a hypothetical question about it, in the center of a discussion about a different god, is bound to be confusing.
OTOH, I for one did answer whether I thought it was benevolent for a non-all-powerful to bring things into existence knowing they'll be damned. (And I was assuming that meant this god you're making up also made that hell, and does the throwing, but who knows at this point. I mean this is YOUR story so maybe you didn't mean that...We could use some definitive parameters here as this isn't a god anyone is probably familiar with.)
So. I did answer your question but here's the other sticking-point issue: did this god create hell or not? Does it decide who goes to hell or not? If yes and yes, then no, it is NOT benevolent and IS malevolent into bringing things into existence to 1. not fully be able to help them when bad things happen and 2. throw them into a horrific place of its own invention when they react badly and humanly to bad things happening. (This particular god can't be throwing people into hell for not believing Jesus is the savior since it's not the god of the Bible, so I'm assuming it's throwing people into hell for behaviors it, the god, doesn't like. Then again, you're the one inventing this god with various capabilities and various restrictions, so I have no idea what you were envisioning for this part of your created god.) But OTOH even if it doesn't control hell I still don't think it's necessarily responsible for it to bring these creatures into existence to potentially be damned, no. Again...no idea how to really accurately answer that question since you're making the rules on what this being can and can't do and what it did and didn't create, but HTH a little, anyway.
It's JMO that if you're going to really ask a question that has entirely different parameters either than the OP or than something anyone would logically be familiar with (a "popular" deity idea v. your own invention), you should start a thread asking this hypothetical question...I don't feel like it makes a lot of sense to piggyback it on this one about the God of the Bible and yes, it's definitely throwing things off. So perhaps start your own philosophical and/or hypothetical "if this was what god was, would it be benevolent if..." thread. Otherwise it's really just sort of a jumble of confusion. Regardless, hope my answers to you helped with your curiosity some.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius
Exactly. This is why I have repeatedly asked Pleroo to define the attributes of her god and she won't do it. If she had said at the offset that her god wasn't omnimax there would have been nothing to discuss. It would have been a simple case of...
Q. Why doesn't God prevent suffering.
A. My god can't. He doesn't have the power to do so. He is not Omnimax.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ
I have a vague and perhaps unfair thought that perhaps this poster is deliberately just not giving us all her info on her own god story so that she can keep telling us we must be wrong and that there really IS at least some kind of god.
I could be wrong but if so, even if it's subconscious, then that's never going to lend itself to any sort of reasonable discussion...period. It simply can't and won't. So I don't know what's expected here... but I did try to answer...given the bit-by-bit information I've been fed about this newly invented god. Not sure if it helped but I gave it a shot.
"What if God can't do all" IS kind of an interesting discussion - when started that way and presented in clear terms - and in fact, I asked this question (basically) myself in a thread from 2013 that's still floating around here, about what if God isn't perfect. But I was pretty clear from the get-go that this was my specific question and that I DIDN'T have some invented parameters of my own about it. Indeed, I wasn't making "this IS what God is" statements at all since the whole point was that I don't know. Now if I were to CREATE my own god story with parameters that made me comfortable because they seemed to fit, that would be a different matter and that thread would have been entirely different, just as this thread would have been entirely different if the original god stated by Finch were some made-up god that wasn't omnimax like Pleroo's invented god isn't.
If we're all just going to throw in "you're wrong because this is how MY god operates" then no...we are never going to get anywhere, full stop. How can we? My God wears a cape, loves Very Berry sorbet and demands that we all sing the chorus of "Morning Train" when we wake up each day. There...now let's try to have a discussion about what THAT god definitely does or doesn't do. It really doesn't work very well, right? Because if I'm just making unfamiliar stuff up out of nowhere then I can say whatever I want but YOU have no idea what to say since it's my imagination doing the talking here.
Oh my goodness, I had no idea it was going to be such an issue. I asked a hypothetical question. I explained that I was just exploring, out loud, my own thoughts through questions. Yes! I went off on my own tangent from the thread, and made it clear that I was doing so. No one else ever goes off on their own tangents in threads? You've never done that?
I don't have a "my god". I understand why some people don't think there is a god. I'm good with that, and sometimes think there are compelling reasons to agree with that. However, I think there are also compelling reasons to think that there IS a god. What that god's attributes are, I. don't. know. I wonder. I ask myself and others questions. It's what I do. As I said, it's how I process. And, yep, I appreciated your responses. It helped me do a little processing.
...and yet you regularly tell us what your god thinks and doesn't think; what it wants and doesn't want; what it is and isn't going to do etc.
I am not sure where and how many times I said "What God thinks and what God does not think" - can you please provide a few references?
Quote:
The Bible disagrees with you.
Eph 1:4-5,11
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
Jeremiah 10:23
23 I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own;
it is not for man to direct his steps.
Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it
Romans 11:20
32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Psa 37:23 From Jehovah are the steps of a man, They have been prepared, And his way he desireth.
Pro 16:9
A man's heart plans his course, but Yahweh directs his steps.
Jer 10:23
Yahweh, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.
Your eyes saw me when I was formless;
all my days were written in Your book and planned before a single one of them began. [Psalm 139:16]
So if your god has "planned every day of your life", would you please explain how you can make any free will decision that will change what your god has planned for you? How do you make a free will decision that might change what is "recorded in his book"???
The Bible disagrees with you.
Is that what it's going to be like in heaven...blind obedience and obeyance?
Does that apply to Hindus or Shintoist or the many other religions that exist?
Well that's where you are wrong you see. All atheists ask for is objective, verifiable evidence and in the whole history of mankind, not one single shred of such evidence has been forthcoming.
As for... 'Probably, no matter what proof you bring to them, they will find a way to dismiss it.'
That is EXACTLY what theists do.We see it on these very boards every day.
...and if the magic pixies came to Earth and told you that they created the universe, would you believe it?
I have a feeling that you belong to the second group so I don't have any disagreement with you. I was only having an exchange of information as to what and how I make my believe.
Eph 1:4-5,11
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
Jeremiah 10:23
23 I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own;
it is not for man to direct his steps.
Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it
Romans 11:20
32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Psa 37:23 From Jehovah are the steps of a man, They have been prepared, And his way he desireth.
Pro 16:9
A man's heart plans his course, but Yahweh directs his steps.
Jer 10:23
Yahweh, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.
Your eyes saw me when I was formless;
all my days were written in Your book and planned before a single one of them began. [Psalm 139:16]
Sorry, I don't follow bible so I can't answer your questions but this part I would like to answer since this is an oxymoron.
Quote:
Can the man do anything to change what Yahweh 'knows'?
Man does NOT even know in the first of ALL what Yahweh knows.
How can man try to change what God knows, when man does not fully know what God knows?
How can you try to tweak Schrodinger's equation when you don't even know it in the first place?
You are still stuck in the rut - you keep assuming that man knows his destiny. And that's where the crux is.
Man does NOT, does NOT and does NOT know his destiny. Repeat this a few times so it sinks in your brain.
And when you understand that man does not know his destiny, you may realize that man may wish to have a good destiny.
And if he wishes to have a good destiny, then he ponders upon his life, resources and time given to him. He tells himself, how can I make the best use of my time, my life and my resources to increase my chances, and be one of those who will be pleased when their destiny is revealed to them.
so he finds the purpose of his life and starts putting an effort with hopes of reaching a good destiny.
All a man can do is, try! and hope for the best.
....
.
.
.
.
..
..
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by the way, here is the basic flow of Schrodinger's equation
Last edited by GoCardinals; 07-22-2016 at 12:15 PM..
Oh my goodness, I had no idea it was going to be such an issue. I asked a hypothetical question. I explained that I was just exploring, out loud, my own thoughts through questions. Yes! I went off on my own tangent from the thread, and made it clear that I was doing so. No one else ever goes off on their own tangents in threads? You've never done that?
No. That's totally fine, and would make sense as its own thread explaining "here's a fun hypothetical...". Piggypbacking on a thread obviously begun regarding a totally different god confused things, that's all.
Tangents happen but usually relate one post to the next to the next in a way that makes more sense tracking back then suddenly jumping in with an evidently but not outwardly obvious 100% different idea (or in this case, 100% different god) - hence the confusion.
It's really that simple and don't worry unduly, we were already "okay."
yes there are souls not in physical bodies at this time.
it is a choice to incarnate in a human body, and not every soul chooses this.
there are souls who are between incarnations
there are souls who are "done" incarnating in human bodies and are doing other work in other planes, assisting humankind from there.
yes there are also "new souls" being created.
Where are you getting these ideas - is this another "invent your own philosophy" thing? That's fine but the suffix that's typically intimated - "...but it's 100% true for everybody!" - simply doesn't carry much weight.
If we are literally all going to just invent our own philosophies here then this really has become an entirely different thread. Here's mine, and it MUST be true and I don't require evidence for it: The world rides on the back of a giant but invisible rabbit. When the rabbit hops, an earthquake results. When the rabbit's mother weeps for her missing child it rains. The rabbit wants us all to eat yogurt, kiss the person next to us whenever we venture out in public, and not have sex until we're 45. Non-adhesion to these rules results in an eternity in a tiny wire cage knee-deep in foul-smelling pellets while giant hairless creatures look inside in gape-mouthed curiosity.
It's all true. Or at least, it's as valid as any of the other theories put forth here, all of which were invented by individuals, and all of which are logistically and logically unlikely and based on the possibility of supernatural beings and what these beings might want/require.
My rabbit-god is all-loving and has no idea whether the beings it creates by eating cosmic dust and eliminating souls into the ether and eventually down to earth will screw up or do well, but overall it's benevolent. It doesn't WANT to send losers to the cage, necessarily.
No. That's totally fine, and would make sense as its own thread explaining "here's a fun hypothetical...". Piggypbacking on a thread obviously begun regarding a totally different god confused things, that's all.
Tangents happen but usually relate one post to the next to the next in a way that makes more sense tracking back then suddenly jumping in with an evidently but not outwardly obvious 100% different idea (or in this case, 100% different god) - hence the confusion.
It's really that simple and don't worry unduly, we were already "okay."
Well, thank you for that lesson. I am duly chastised about confusing people by telling them that I was jumping in with a question NOT related to the idea of God that was currently being discussed, which made it evident but not obvious that I was jumping in with a question NOT related to the idea of God that was currently being discussed.
Well, thank you for that lesson. I am duly chastised about confusing people by telling them that I was jumping in with a question NOT related to the idea of God that was currently being discussed, which made it evident but not obvious that I was jumping in with a question NOT related to the idea of God that was currently being discussed.
It was an explanation, not a chastisement. You seem to have taken all this personally: your personal god, your personal story of your god, you personally are totally misunderstood, you personally are being chastised because people want to explain why we misunderstood you.
I think you're a bit upset about this. It's only a message board. Relax.
Keep your beliefs as you've invented them, just don't be unhappy if others don't jump on board. Many religions have gone the way of the dodo throughout history or have begun but petered out. It depends upon what emotional buttons the religion pushes and how good the story "hook" is. Don't take that personally either. Just keep believing what makes you happy...but realize not everyone else will believe it just because it sounds happier than the typically espoused one.
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but I did try to answer...given the bit-by-bit information I've been fed about this newly invented god. 
It is a continuous repetition of...'my god isn't like that. I'm not going to tell you what it is like... but you have to answer questions regarding what it's like..' It's nonsense!
