What is Mashiah?... (America, Revelations, gospels, bible)

[rosends]

Why Jews Don't Believe In Jesus, why Jews reject Jesus

[granpa]

Jesus = Samson

[graytabbie]

Thank you for the link.

[Richard1965]

Originally Posted by graytabbie

I am having many questions about the messiah. In churches I have attended, the explanation as to why the Jewish people didn't accept Jesus as messiah was (among other things, I'm sure) because they were expecting a literal king and military-type leader. Are there verses in the Hebrew Bible that state this, or is this in other Hebrew Holy Books? Richard1965, could you elaborate on the differences between the Hebrew Bible verses sited above vs the Christian Bible?

The old testament is not the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible ), but an edited version of it...The reason why we are looking for a man born of two parents that will be among other things a political as well as military leader is because this is what the Tanakh says he will be, this is who G-d told the Jews to be on the lookout for...

[TRANSPONDER]

Originally Posted by Richard1965

And there's your problem...The above is not from the Hebrew Bible...

Good point. We sometimes think it is just like RSV vs NEV, but apparently the misreading goes further than that.

Originally Posted by graytabbie

I am having many questions about the messiah. In churches I have attended, the explanation as to why the Jewish people didn't accept Jesus as messiah was (among other things, I'm sure) because they were expecting a literal king and military-type leader. Are there verses in the Hebrew Bible that state this, or is this in other Hebrew Holy Books? Richard1965, could you elaborate on the differences between the Hebrew Bible verses sited above vs the Christian Bible?

Yes. I realize that Jews may not consider this very important at all but in the debate between Christians and atheist it is vital.

Originally Posted by Richard1965

The old testament is not the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible ), but an edited version of it...The reason why we are looking for a man born of two parents that will be among other things a political as well as military leader is because this is what the Tanakh says he will be, this is who G-d told the Jews to be on the lookout for...

I did have a look at this, comparing the OT in the Bible with the Hebrew scriptures. Apart from the order of chapters and (it may be) translation matters, there didn't appear to be that much difference.

[Richard1965]

Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER

I did have a look at this, comparing the OT in the Bible with the Hebrew scriptures. Apart from the order of chapters and (it may be) translation matters, there didn't appear to be that much difference.

Did you know that G-d created everything on day one?...And placed them over the six day period?...Can't tell that from the English translation though...

[TRANSPONDER]

Originally Posted by Richard1965

Did you know that G-d created everything on day one?...And placed them over the six day period?...Can't tell that from the English translation though...

I certainly did not get that. Blessed if I know why not. The Interlinear Bible starts with Gen. 1...

Hmm well, I'm not sure. 'Beginning' seems to be more general than Day 1, and the various bits and pieces seem to be described as being created on successive days (marked by morning and evening) and of course in the wrong order. What do you say? Is the problem that I am looking at a Bible in Hebrew rather than the Torah in Hebrew?

[JB from NC]

Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER

I did have a look at this, comparing the OT in the Bible with the Hebrew scriptures. Apart from the order of chapters and (it may be) translation matters, there didn't appear to be that much difference.

Much of the issue is with the translation; the Christian Old Testament is a translation of a translation of a translation (Hebrew to Greek to Latin to English/German/French....) and relies heavily on eisegesis. In choosing words that alter the meaning of the text, the authors created a book that differs significantly from the original; it's been written so the reader sees Jesus where he does not exist.

[TRANSPONDER]

Originally Posted by JB from NC

Much of the issue is with the translation; the Christian Old Testament is a translation of a translation of a translation (Hebrew to Greek to Latin to English/German/French....) and relies heavily on eisegesis. In choosing words that alter the meaning of the text, the authors created a book that differs significantly from the original; it's been written so the reader sees Jesus where he does not exist.

I believe that even the first (16th c) versions of the OT went back to the original Hebrew. I am sure the modern translations do as well.

I am willing to be convinced if I can be shown or linked to a Hebrew Torah text of the description of the creation to compare with the Hebrew text of the BibleOT Genesis.

Or, as they say, if you want something done....

» Classic Texts » The Torah (Jewish Bible) » The Pentateuch » Genesis
Berei**** - (Don't blame me) Genesis - Chapter 1

BothEnglishHebrew
1In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth. אבְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ:
2Now the earth was astonishingly empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep, and the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the water. בוְהָאָרֶץ הָיְתָה תֹהוּ וָבֹהוּ וְחשֶׁךְ עַל פְּנֵי תְהוֹם וְרוּחַ אֱלֹהִים מְרַחֶפֶת עַל פְּנֵי הַמָּיִם:
3And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. גוַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים יְהִי אוֹר וַיְהִי אוֹר:
4And God saw the light that it was good, and God separated between the light and between the darkness. דוַיַּרְא אֱלֹהִים אֶת הָאוֹר כִּי טוֹב וַיַּבְדֵּל אֱלֹהִים בֵּין הָאוֹר וּבֵין הַחשֶׁךְ:
5And God called the light day, and the darkness He called night, and it was evening and it was morning, one day. הוַיִּקְרָא אֱלֹהִים | לָאוֹר יוֹם וְלַחשֶׁךְ קָרָא לָיְלָה וַיְהִי עֶרֶב וַיְהִי בֹקֶר יוֹם אֶחָד:
6And God said, "Let there be an expanse in the midst of the water, and let it be a separation between water and water." ווַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים יְהִי רָקִיעַ בְּתוֹךְ הַמָּיִם וִיהִי מַבְדִּיל בֵּין מַיִם לָמָיִם:
7And God made the expanse and it separated between the water that was below the expanse and the water that was above the expanse, and it was so. זוַיַּעַשׂ אֱלֹהִים אֶת הָרָקִיעַ וַיַּבְדֵּל בֵּין הַמַּיִם אֲשֶׁר מִתַּחַת לָרָקִיעַ וּבֵין הַמַּיִם אֲשֶׁר מֵעַל לָרָקִיעַ וַיְהִי כֵן:
8And God called the expanse Heaven, and it was evening, and it was morning, a second day. חוַיִּקְרָא אֱלֹהִים לָרָקִיעַ שָׁמָיִם וַיְהִי עֶרֶב וַיְהִי בֹקֶר יוֹם שֵׁנִי:
9And God said, "Let the water that is beneath the heavens gather into one place, and let the dry land appear," and it was so. טוַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים יִקָּווּ הַמַּיִם מִתַּחַת הַשָּׁמַיִם אֶל מָקוֹם אֶחָד וְתֵרָאֶה הַיַּבָּשָׁה וַיְהִי כֵן:
10And God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas, and God saw that it was good. יוַיִּקְרָא אֱלֹהִים | לַיַּבָּשָׁה אֶרֶץ וּלְמִקְוֵה הַמַּיִם קָרָא יַמִּים וַיַּרְא אֱלֹהִים כִּי טוֹב:
11And God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, seed yielding herbs and fruit trees producing fruit according to its kind in which its seed is found, on the earth," and it was so.

Well, I don't see any indication a all that it was all done on day One, or in one day, but in a general staring of everything but on the successive days, and just as in the Bible some odd words or readings aside.

I shall refrain from further comment right now, But I invite some explanation from Our Hebrew savants as to how the Christian OT is incorrect because the Hebrew Torah says something the OT got wrong because of a series of translations of translations.

[JB from NC]

Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER

I believe that even the first (16th c) versions of the OT went back to the original Hebrew. I am sure the modern translations do as well.

I am willing to be convinced if I can be shown or linked to a Hebrew Torah text of the description of the creation to compare with the Hebrew text of the BibleOT Genesis.

Or, as they say, if you want something done....

Well, I don't see any indication a all that it was all done on day One, or in one day, but in a general staring of everything but on the successive days, and just as in the Bible some odd words or readings aside.

I shall refrain from further comment right now, But I invite some explanation from Our Hebrew savants as to how the Christian OT is incorrect because the Hebrew Torah says something the OT got wrong because of a series of translations of translations.

I'm not concerned with claims made by Richard, nor with convincing anyone of anything. I tend to leave that to the Christians and atheists.
Here's a link to a commonly used online Tanakh: http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...with-Rashi.htm
And another: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...le/jpstoc.html

My favorite is the Jewish Study Bible published by the Oxford Press, which uses the JPS translation, but it is not available on line as far as I know.

The differences aren't limited to one book of the Bible; the books of the Prophets and Writings are full of small translation changes that alter the underlying meaning of the verses.

As for Christian Old Testament being "incorrect", I never made that claim; I said it differed from the Tanahk and changed the meaning of the original. It is a Christian work, and they can have it say whatever they wish.