Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Maybe. But if that something does exist, isn't it better to keep searching until you find it, rather than give up because maybe you would not find it? I was convinced once I would never find a man who would truly love me. Well, I have.
If the something exists, it must not want us to know it exists, or it is not concerned with what we want, or some such. If it wanted to make itself known to us, it would.
I don't know if I count but I'm an agnostic theist so I don't believe in religion. Aside from lack of substantial evidence, I don't believe in it for the opposite reason. I don't believe it because if this god was what Christians portray him to be, my life would be completely different. I have been so desperate at times that I've prayed to this god and you know what happened? NOTHING not a thing.
My life has sucked way too much for a god like that to ever be there. If such a god did exist then why the hell would I want anything to do with him when he would be letting people walk all over me? Anything good that I have gotten I had to have got on my own because if it wasn't on my own then I should be getting more of what I need
I feel for you. Life can be hard to take at times. No wonder people turn to god -belief as a palliative. I know that you are a believer of a sort, but not on the basis of joining dots to construct a false image of a god. You know - the 'car Keys' evidence.
If the something exists, it must not want us to know it exists, or it is not concerned with what we want, or some such. If it wanted to make itself known to us, it would.
like you showing a muscle cell you exist? exactly how would something a few factors of ten, like 12, larger and more complex show you? Could you make yourself "known" to an ant? and when you did expose yourself would it even know?
Now I am not much interested in meaning. I only care about how the universe works. I don't care if people need something or not. That's for the religious theist and religious atheist to fight about. I just vote against stupid rules like she-boys allowed in the girls bathroom in public schools. Or the ever popular "unarmed" means we can do what we want with a car not matter who gets hurt.
I'm going to disagree on just one point- that of having 'no practical value'.
There *is* a practical value to pretending you have all the answers, [even if you don't]. The value is in the power to control the attitudes and actions of other people by convincing them that you have knowledge, power and access to things that they don't. You can make people do what you want them to do, make them give you 'stuff'.
Way, way back down the line, somebody discovered that if he pretended to 'have the ear of the gods' and knowledge of how they worked and what they wanted, he could scare the bejeebers out of the rest of the tribe, convince them that they had to make 'sacrifices' to 'the gods' (but really to him) so he could live at ease while they busted their butts hunting and gathering. Thus, religion was born.
This is literally is the longest running scam in history. Far older than Judeo-Christianity. We know that ancient prehistoric people had religious beliefs. The role of witch doctor/shaman/priesthood has been around probably nearly as long as modern humans have been around, if not longer. These individuals were generally feared and highly respected in tribal hierarchy, as well as being men of wealth in power in the early civilizations where they typically served as advisers to the king. The problem was, they were generally expected to foretell important things, like the fortunes of upcoming battles, and the general coming of disasters. Since such people are little more than con artists using slight of hand tricks to fool everyone, (think Peter Popoff here) they had no better than a 50/50 chance of predicting anything right. And when they got it wrong they generally paid with their lives.
The priests of Judaism however figured a way around this problem. They produced a series of documents, known as the Torah, which they claimed to be from God Himself, which placed duties and restrictions on the Jewish population. Lots and lots of duties and restrictions on the Jewish population. So many duties and restrictions on the Jewish population that it was impossible for all of the people to to keep all of the duties and restrictions all of the time. So when disasters struck, which of course they inevitably would, the priests could claim that they were not at fault, but the people had angered God by falling to uniformly follow all of the rules all of the time. And so the priests were able to reap the rewards of their position without suffering the risks.
The rewards for the Jewish priests, the Levites, were extraordinarily lucrative too. For example:
Num.18
[20] And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Thou shalt have no inheritance in their land, neither shalt thou have any part among them: I am thy part and thine inheritance among the children of Israel.
[21] And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Num.31:
1. And of the children of Israel's half, thou shalt take one portion of fifty, of the persons, of the beeves, of the asses, and of the flocks, of all manner of beasts, and give them unto the Levites, which keep the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD.
2. Even of the children of Israel's half, Moses took one portion of fifty, both of man and of beast, and gave them unto the Levites, which kept the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD; as the LORD commanded Moses.
The Levites have no inheritance of lands to work but are instead given a portion of the wealth and cities to reside in:
Num.35:
1. Command the children of Israel, that they give unto the Levites of the inheritance of their possession cities to dwell in; and ye shall give also unto the Levites suburbs for the cities round about them.
2. And the suburbs of the cities, which ye shall give unto the Levites, shall reach from the wall of the city and outward a thousand cubits round about.
3. And among the cities which ye shall give unto the Levites there shall be six cities for refuge, which ye shall appoint for the manslayer, that he may flee thither: and to them ye shall add forty and two cities.
4. So all the cities which ye shall give to the Levites shall be forty and eight cities: them shall ye give with their suburbs.
5. And the cities which ye shall give shall be of the possession of the children of Israel: from them that have many ye shall give many; but from them that have few ye shall give few: every one shall give of his cities unto the Levites according to his inheritance which he inheriteth.
Leviticus makes it even better for the Levites. Free homes to live in. And if the Levite owners should choose to sell his home to a non Levite, the ownership of the home reverts to the Levite owner again every seven years.
Lev.25
1. Notwithstanding the cities of the Levites, and the houses of the cities of their possession, may the Levites redeem at any time.
2. And if a man purchase of the Levites, then the house that was sold, and the city of his possession, shall go out in the year of jubile: for the houses of the cities of the Levites are their possession among the children of Israel.
Deuteronomy sweetens the deal for the Levites even further.
[i]Deut.12
[16] "Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty:
[17] Every man shall give as he is able, according to the blessing of the LORD thy God which he hath given thee."
Deut.18
[1] "The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel: they shall eat the offerings of the LORD made by fire, and his inheritance.
[2] Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: the LORD is their inheritance, as he hath said unto them.
[3] And this shall be the priest's due from the people, from them that offer a sacrifice, whether it be ox or sheep; and they shall give unto the priest the shoulder, and the two cheeks, and the maw.
[4] The firstfruit also of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the first of the fleece of thy sheep, shalt thou give him."[/b]
Wow! What a huge break for the Levites! Three times a year you must come to Jerusalem and make your offering to the Lord of the finest things you possess. And once your offering is consecrated it becomes the property of the Levites.
And it only gets better. The duties of the Levites "set them aside" from the general population. They are not required to fight in battle.
"Why did the Levites not share in the apportionment of land of Israel and its plunder, along with their brethren? Because they were set aside to worship the Lord and to minister to Him, and to instruct the masses in His proper ways and just laws, as it is said: “They shall teach Your laws to Jacob and Your instructions to Israel” (Deut. 33:10). Therefore they were set aside from the ways of the world: they do not go to war, as do the rest of Israel, they do not receive an apportionment of land as an inheritance, and they do not obtain things for themselves by the strength of their bodies; rather, they are the Lord’s host (Heb. hayil), as it is said: “Bless, O Lord, his substance (Heb. Barekh hashem helo), [2] and He, Blessed be He, provides for them, as it is said: “I am your portion and your share” (Num. 18:20)." Rabbi Judah Zoldan 668 Zoldan
Now THAT'S a scam! Well played Levites. Well played. The "practical value" is all to the benefit of the priests of course. Who discovered thousands of years ago how easy it is to manipulate the ignorant gullible masses. And live pretty darned high on the hog in the process.
Tired of the Nonsense, you see, you are going at me with the intellectual jousting, just like I mentioned in my OP As if I were somehow denying the laws of physics.
I fully agree with all you say regarding the reliability of science. Gosh, my fiance has a degree in physics and earns his bread (and will be earning mine also, at least for a while) with the knowledge of these laws and principles, so I would be a complete fool in his eyes to deny them.
Some people (deists) believe that the precise reason the laws of physics are so reliable and inviolable is that they have been created by God. As far as I remember, Isaac Newton believed that God takes pleasure in perfect clockwork-like functioning of the universe.
But then again, natural laws, useful as they might be, do not explain everything about the human condition. Natural laws do not teach humans how to coexist with each other and with the rest of the world. Quite the opposite, if you go with unmitigated Darwinism only, you end up with survival of the fittest and the claw-and-tooth fighting for one's own. I know, you will probably not agree, but I do not see another way around this fact. In order to explain and to inform our humanity we need something different than the bare laws of nature. That is why religion, philosophy various moral teachings exist.
The Bible, just like the other various sacred books were most explicitly not meant as textbooks of science. I think the very reason it was written in totally unscientific language (the sun standing in the sky instead of the earth ceasing to rotate) is that it was meant for all times and all kinds of people, not only the scientifically literate.
And where you are seeing a "flying reanimated corpse", I see a promise that some day our world will not be ruled by a bunch of evil greedy jerks any more, and that some day upright living and moral integrity will be revered and rewarded again, rather than only laughed at.
But then again, natural laws, useful as they might be, do not explain everything about the human condition.
Of course not, nor are they meant to.
Quote:
Natural laws do not teach humans how to coexist with each other and with the rest of the world. Quite the opposite, if you go with unmitigated Darwinism only, you end up with survival of the fittest and the claw-and-tooth fighting for one's own. I know, you will probably not agree, but I do not see another way around this fact. In order to explain and to inform our humanity we need something different than the bare laws of nature. That is why religion, philosophy various moral teachings exist.
'Religion' is not needed for this. All that is needed, is the simple realization that there must be some rules regarding interaction and cooperation. Even beasts that live in groups have these rules, though they cannot speak of them or describe them. Men have a greater understanding of the concepts and they can be refined. Societies interested in self-preservation must have some rules, they develop these rules and enforce them through government. Religion is clearly not the best arbiter of these rules, as observed by the occurrence of the 'my god is better than your god so we can kill you' type of thinking demonstrated by the xtian bible and the practices of some islamic groups.
We need to move on from that BS and use common sense and reason instead.
Quote:
And where you are seeing a "flying reanimated corpse", I see a promise that some day our world will not be ruled by a bunch of evil greedy jerks any more, and that some day upright living and moral integrity will be revered and rewarded again, rather than only laughed at.
That's not going to happen. The flying corpsers have been saying "coming back soon" for nearly 2,000 years, it was originally supposed to happen before *that* generation passed away. It didn't happen then and it's not going to happen now. We need to have rules based on logic and reason, not 'guy in the sky' pipe dreams.
like you showing a muscle cell you exist? exactly how would something a few factors of ten, like 12, larger and more complex show you? Could you make yourself "known" to an ant? and when you did expose yourself would it even know?
I'm a Divine Being? I caused the muscle cell and the ant to exist?
Norne: The fittest in the survival of the fittest could be the one best able to cooperate with others. Fittest does not mean the toughest, most ruthless or strongest but the one that fits the environment best and the best fit could be the one who cooperates the best.
That's not going to happen. The flying corpsers have been saying "coming back soon" for nearly 2,000 years, it was originally supposed to happen before *that* generation passed away. It didn't happen then and it's not going to happen now. We need to have rules based on logic and reason, not 'guy in the sky' pipe dreams.
is love, compassion, and understanding a pipe dream? We will make the next life form sooner than you think. Isn't ok to think its going to better adapted then us? Have more understanding than us? Will not lesser life form think it a god? Even though we know its not.
dead dude coming back does need to go away. But as we learn more it's not the body that's coming back, it's the "actions" of 'Christ'. That body of Christ is a focal point to help us align mind, body, spirit. Use whatever you want, but should we use government? then, maybe, that next life form will have them.
The mind, is how we think about things, the logic and reason you speak of. It is illogical to think that "pot luck" and "random" drive the things we see. It goes against observation as much as any Omni-dude dying, waking up, and flying away. Again, simple, show me where that claim is wrong.
The body component, on its own, is "The literal view" and it is bad and not needed. But we still have address it, "rituals" do help the "body", the "muscles". That's a proven fact. Why would you say that notion is false when it has been shown to be true?
The spirit is the "how we feel" part. How real is it? I don't know. "revenge", "pipe dream", "malice" are things we turn away from. "hope", "support", and "helping" are things that can carry us through this poop sandwich of life.
Yes, no laws based on "god". Get rid of fundies and literalist on both sides. I am for separation of church and state. Just because I don't believe in god or I am out for revenge doesn't mean I want boys that think they are girls allowed in the girls bath room in public high schools. Why should liberals be forcing their views on everybody else? they are more dangerous then any theist I know.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
As if I were somehow denying the laws of physics. 
