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One thing is certain without doubt: One day we shall be in His presence and give an account of our very lives. ..
No, that isn't 'for certain' at all. That is your belief. A belief that you are unable to verify as being true.
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I choose to hear His wonderful words of "Come Thou Good and Faithful servant"! ...
I choose not to be shackled by ancient superstition.
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To the unbelievers out there I say : You better hope that you made the right choice about Jesus ... you had better be 101% sure that your rejection of Christ and the Good News is correct ! ...
..and to you I say that you had better hope that you have made the right choice and that when you get to your heaven you think you are going to, you are not greeted by Thor or any of the thousands of other gods that people believe exist, just as firmly that you believe your god exists.
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Your knee will bow someday and your tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord ! ... You do not have to believe the Good News of the Gospel because it is a choice... but you had better hope that are absolutely right in your decision to be an unbeliever ....
Pascal's Wager will never work with those that can think for themselves. Even Pascal admitted that it was rubbish!
Using the same criterion, why don't you discredit the histories about the Caesars who proclaimed they were Gods too????
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Originally Posted by Rafius
...because, unlike the Jesus Christ character, we are well aware of what the Caesars looked like. We have a complete history of their lives, their deeds, their battles and wars, often compiled by their enemies. We have words written by the Caesars themselves and words written by both their friends and their enemies. We have sculptures, coins, inscriptions etc.
There is mountains of evidence that confirms the existence of the Caesars. The same cannot be said of Jesus The Christ.For the Christian man-god there is, well.....nothing that is verifiable!
So you are an elitist and use class or status as your determining factor, NOT God claims. To say that Jesus was in the lower class is not to denigrate Him but to correctly categorize His status in the world and that is what makes His impact on the world so remarkable. That nothing remains of Him personally is a non-issue given His completely unimportant social status in a backwater of the immense Roman Empire.
To say that Jesus was in the lower class is not to denigrate Him but to correctly categorize His status in the world and that is what makes His impact on the world so remarkable.
Ummmm..."impact on the world". You realise of course that two-thirds of the world don't believe or accept your man-god right? That's 2.5 billion believers in the Christian man-god as opposed to 5 billion that do not believe.
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That nothing remains of Him personally is a non-issue given His completely unimportant social status in a backwater of the immense Roman Empire.
So you keep saying. What you have to ask yourself is why a man that, in a time of high superstition and belief in magic, who was alleged to have performed miracles the like of which the world had not seen before or since, was an unknown nobody. Logically, the likelihood is that no such person existed.
Richard after all the things recorded about what God did for the likes of Moses, Abraham, David, Samson, etc. yet you have no problem believing them, yet you have a hard time believing what is recorded in the gospels. come on.
It is a matter of opinion whether the 4 gospels are 'independent'.
Which 'scrolls' would they be?
As Richard said, it's what the 'scrolls' say. Most of us would have no argument against an itinerant, Jewish preacher and outspoken critic of the establishment who overstepped the mark and got his comeuppance. What we have a argument against is the divine, son of a god, miracle man described in the Bible.
Does it make sense to you now?
well here is the thing Rafius, 7 independent scrolls say Jesus existed, whether you believe this same Jesus is the son of God is NOT THE ISSUE, the issue is did a man named Jesus who some called the Christ ever exist.
So far I have given 7 independent scrolls stating yes, no one has given any evidence that he did not, just there opinion. Sorry but the weight of historical scrolls out weight your guys opinion.
well here is the thing Rafius, 7 independent scrolls say Jesus existed,...
That would be the Bible and what?? The Bible we know is unreliable and trustworthy and no serious scholar of history accepts that the gospel events actually happened.
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whether you believe this same Jesus is the son of God is NOT THE ISSUE,
It's very much the issue pneuma. I have no problem accepting the possible existence of an itinerant rebel rabbi preacher. What I do not accept is the Jesus of the Bible. That would be the one they call Jesus The Christ.
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the issue is did a man named Jesus who some called the Christ ever exist.
If that is the issue then the answer is that there is not a scrap of verifiable evidence that he did. You could always disclose your 'scrolls' extant of the Bible and prove me wrong of course.
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So far I have given 7 independent scrolls stating yes, no one has given any evidence that he did not, just there opinion.
So far you have only claimed to have the evidence without disclosing what it is. The four 'scrolls' are the gospels which can be dismissed as circular reasoning. The other three I suspect will be some oft debunked nonsense like Josephus, Tacitus and who...Suetonius perhaps?
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Sorry but the weight of historical scrolls out weight your guys opinion.
Produce these 'scrolls' leaving out the gospels and I'll deal with them.
Evidence of Jesus
There is no physical or archaeological evidence for Jesus. All sources are documentary, mainly Christian writings, such as the gospels and the purported letters of the apostles. The authenticity and reliability of these sources has been questioned by many scholars, and few events mentioned in the gospels are universally accepted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus
Ya I get that to. The thing is the gospels are 4 independent scrolls that speak of a man named Jesus who is called the Christ. Then we have the Jew and the 2 roman independent scrolls. That is 7 independent scrolls that talk about Jesus. No critical thinking person should just ignore 7 independent scrolls. I really do not see how they cannot see that 7 independent scrolls is actually a lot of weight when history is involved.
The ironic thing is some of them say they have no problem with a historical Jesus, yet they fight tooth and nail against the scrolls that speak about Him. It makes no sense to me.
That's because you're a biased Christian wearing rose-colored glasses; you want it to be true. Trying taking off the glasses for a moment and look at it from the point of view of a secular scholar: 7 documents written roughly 60 years after the "fact" by churchmen with an agenda to push Christianity to pagans and will say anything to convert them, i.e. "If I tell untruths for the sake of the gospel why is it held against me?" (Romans 3:7) against 300 secular historians contemporary with Christ who couldn't care less what people believed and they didn't write a single words about the most famous man in the eastern Mediterranean area??????????
Ya I get that to. The thing is the gospels are 4 independent scrolls that speak of a man named Jesus who is called the Christ. Then we have the Jew and the 2 roman independent scrolls. That is 7 independent scrolls that talk about Jesus. No critical thinking person should just ignore 7 independent scrolls. I really do not see how they cannot see that 7 independent scrolls is actually a lot of weight when history is involved.
The ironic thing is some of them say they have no problem with a historical Jesus, yet they fight tooth and nail against the scrolls that speak about Him. It makes no sense to me.
The fact that some ancient writings were collected and assembled into a religious canon does NOT change their historical or archeological importance. Only the atheists and secularists like to pretend there is a difference among the ancient writings. The idea that 2000+ years of impact on the world stage is the result of a non-existent person is just too ludicrous for words! Questioning any elaborations or hyperbole in the content is legitimate, but the absurd idea that a non-existent person was the basis for such enormous impact is preposterous.
That would be the Bible and what?? The Bible we know is unreliable and trustworthy and no serious scholar of history accepts that the gospel events actually happened.
It's very much the issue pneuma. I have no problem accepting the possible existence of an itinerant rebel rabbi preacher. What I do not accept is the Jesus of the Bible. That would be the one they call Jesus The Christ.
If that is the issue then the answer is that there is not a scrap of verifiable evidence that he did. You could always disclose your 'scrolls' extant of the Bible and prove me wrong of course.
So far you have only claimed to have the evidence without disclosing what it is. The four 'scrolls' are the gospels which can be dismissed as circular reasoning. The other three I suspect will be some oft debunked nonsense like Josephus, Tacitus and who...Suetonius perhaps?
Produce these 'scrolls' leaving out the gospels and I'll deal with them.
Evidence of Jesus
There is no physical or archaeological evidence for Jesus. All sources are documentary, mainly Christian writings, such as the gospels and the purported letters of the apostles. The authenticity and reliability of these sources has been questioned by many scholars, and few events mentioned in the gospels are universally accepted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus
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Originally Posted by thrillobyte
That's because you're a biased Christian wearing rose-colored glasses; you want it to be true. Trying taking off the glasses for a moment and look at it from the point of view of a secular scholar: 7 documents written roughly 60 years after the "fact" by churchmen with an agenda to push Christianity to pagans and will say anything to convert them, i.e. "If I tell untruths for the sake of the gospel why is it held against me?" (Romans 3:7) against 300 secular historians contemporary with Christ who couldn't care less what people believed and they didn't write a single words about the most famous man in the eastern Mediterranean area??????????
And it still doesn't make sense to you????????
Finally, that was what I was waiting for, you guys finally admitting the only reason you do not believe the historians I quoted is because if they are true then it lends weight to the gospel records and you guys just cannot have that, thus you fight against it.
So lets look at things from the standpoint of your own reasoning. Which is Josephus, Suetonius and Cornelius Tacitus are historians of fables and myths.
Which mean then that Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero, Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Vespasian, Titus and Domitian are really nothing more then myths.
And
That the Jewish and roman war of AD70 never really happened.
You guys just dug yourselves one heck of a hole, lets see how you try to get out of that one.
The fact that some ancient writings were collected and assembled into a religious canon does NOT change their historical or archeological importance. Only the atheists and secularists like to pretend there is a difference among the ancient writings. The idea that 2000+ years of impact on the world stage is the result of a non-existent person is just too ludicrous for words! Questioning any elaborations or hyperbole in the content is legitimate, but the absurd idea that a non-existent person was the basis for such enormous impact is preposterous.
I know that and you know that brother, but they cannot seem to grasp it.
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