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Nozz I am not interested in your usual "back pedal" or "doge and evade" accusations.
Neither of which I did. You quoted my post, which was written earlier this month...I have not even thought about this thread or what I posted in it since that time until you responded. We know that incest occurs in other animal species, however mammals in general tend to avoid engaging in incest.
Perhaps you see nothing wrong with incest but nothing about it interests me and in fact I find it utterly disgusting on many levels.
In fact I feel a total revulsion in even thinking about engaging in incest with my blood relatives.
As I've stated before I see the root problem as power imbalances, poor or nonexistent respect for boundaries, and lack of consent as the root cause of all sexual harms. There are very limited scenarios where incestuous relationships would, in theory, circumvent all these harms. Therefore to discuss incest as a discrete problem or to look to an evolved taboo against it generally, is to miss the point. It is wrong to engage with another sexually where they do not or can not give informed consent. It is wrong to transgress generally healthy personal boundaries, sexual or otherwise. Incest nearly always does this -- and THAT is the ACTUAL problem with it. It is less something to speak out against as a thing-in-itself than it is a red flag that is a good indicator of the ACTUAL problem which is violating another person's sexual boundaries in some way.
I have heard accounts of, for example, sibling incest where both are adults, have an intimate relationship that evolved well after they become adults, and regard these things as None Of My Business if it is truly consensual. That is not to say I don't find the idea ... challenging. Or that I shouldn't find it so. That is not to say I feel particularly sympathetic to the problems encountered by such couples who are "out" about it -- given that from the whole universe of potential intimate partners, they willingly chose as they did, and then turn around and complain about the resulting understandable problems that others have with such an anomalous coupling.
All that said, 99.999% of incestuous relationships are deeply wrong ... just not because of incest as such, but because someone is not giving informed consent and someone's motives are far less than pure and noble. For those 99.999% of harmful incestuous relationships, the concept of incest isn't needed to define the harms or justify the punishments or to consider the relationship abusive. Incest is extraneous to those questions.
Nozz I am not interested in your usual "back pedal" or "doge and evade" accusations.
Well if you can not even figure out what user you are talking to - then I am not sure what hope we have for you to keep up with other aspects of the conversation. I can certainly put you in touch with one of the main moderators/administrators of this entire website who looked into the slander you are pedaling and found it to be unfounded and false if you need further assistance on that one. However I will not mention it again to derail this thread and leave it to the moderators to deal with from here on out.
But to the topic - if changing a statement - from "you won't find this practiced among other animal species" to "you won't find it commonly practiced" - is not a back pedal then I really do not know what is. One statement is very clearly different and lesser than the other.
But it is not important how we label that back pedal - what is more important is the fact we are now agreed that it does occur in nature. I think it occurs much more often than you seem to want to admit - breeders and owners of house cats will certainly have numerous anecdotes of siblings making each other pregnant for example - but certainly not common enough that we can disagree about it simply not being statistically normal.
But so what? As I keep pointing out - sex and sexuality is one area of humanity that does not map onto comparisons with other animal life well. Mainly because human sex and sexuality is fed by aspects of human nature that simply do not exist in other areas of the animal kingdom at all or at remotely similar levels. Language. Culture. Art. Civilisation. Ethics. Morality. All of this is unique or near unique to us - and all of it feeds into human sexuality in unique ways. Comparisons to the animal kingdom simply do not hold up.
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Originally Posted by Matadora
Perhaps you see nothing wrong with incest but nothing about it interests me and in fact I find it utterly disgusting on many levels.
In fact I feel a total revulsion in even thinking about engaging in incest with my blood relatives.
Well so do I. There are many people who feel exactly that revulsion at the thought of having sex with someone of the same Gender. There are people who have that revulsion at the thought of having sex with someone very obese. There are people who have that revulsion at the thought of sex with someone of another race or skin color. There are people who have that revulsion at the thought of sex with someone of a significantly different age group.
The list goes on. And on. At some point reading down that list one comes to the revelation that _personal_ revulsion and disgust at something does not automatically equate to the thing itself _actually_ being disgusting or revolting.
If the best and only argument you can level against incest is _personal_ revulsion then I can but point out that _everything_ about sex and sexuality is therefore wrong because someone somewhere will be revolted by it. Why should your revulsion be the arbiter of what is right and wrong? Especially when there exists people like myself who can maintain a healthy separation between what is disgusting and wrong _to me_ and what _actually_ is disgusting and wrong?
Do you think homosexuality is bad and wrong just because there are people in the world revolted at the thought of it?
Well if you can not even figure out what user you are talking to - then I am not sure what hope we have for you to keep up with other aspects of the conversation.
Oh I guess you are just a Nozz doppelganger.
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Originally Posted by monumentus
I think it occurs much more often than you seem to want to admit - breeders and owners of house cats will certainly have numerous anecdotes of siblings making each other pregnant for example - but certainly not common enough that we can disagree about it simply not being statistically normal.
Do you know why this occurs more often with domesticated kept animals? Their mating selection is very narrow and limited when kept in closed living environments. Domestication and keeping animals in closed living quarters dumbs them down when compared to the same species that is free in addition to limiting their selection for mating.
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Originally Posted by monumentus
Why should your revulsion be the arbiter of what is right and wrong?
Show me where I made such a claim that my revulsion makes me the arbiter of what is right and wrong.
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Originally Posted by monumentus
Do you think homosexuality is bad and wrong just because there are people in the world revolted at the thought of it?
Homosexuality and incest are two completely different topics. I have many gay male friends and I could care less who they want to chose as a partner. I have no openly incestuous friends and to be honest I would not want to associate with folks who are into incest.
Do you know why this occurs more often with domesticated kept animals? Their mating selection is very narrow and limited when kept in closed living environments. Domestication and keeping animals in closed living quarters dumbs them down when compared to the same species that is free in addition to limiting their selection for mating.
Of course I am aware of the reasons for it - but the point is that it still happens despite your original claims we "wont find it" anywhere. I have given examples from the wild and from domestication. The simple fact is we do see it elsewhere outside our species. In domestic animals. In wild animals. And in the higher apes. It simply is not as unique or rare as you are pretending.
But as I keep pointing out - that non-point is further buried by the fact that human sexuality is made up of - and informed by - numerous other factors that either simply do not exist at all in the animal kingdom - or exist in relatively irrelevant ways. From higher sentience to culture and language and art - to the near unique concept of morality and ethics upon which society is based.
All of this simply renders attempts to form comparisons between humanity and the rest of the animal kingdom useless for this context.
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Originally Posted by Matadora
Show me where I made such a claim that my revulsion makes me the arbiter of what is right and wrong.
Pull your neck in - I am referring to mentioning your personal disgust towards incest at all and how relevant (that is to say irrelevant) it actually is. Comments on it being the arbiter of right and wrong is a rhetorical point on that basis - not a claim that you are actually explicitly doing so. The point being - that ones personal disgust at something is not at all relevant to the actual moral rightness or wrongness of it which - if you read the thread title - is what we are actually discussing here. Remember?
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Originally Posted by Matadora
Homosexuality and incest are two completely different topics.
Yes and water is wet. But when we get past stating the blatantly obvious at each other the point still remains. Which was that the existence of _personal disgust_ about incest is as relevant here as it is to the morality of homosexuality. That is to say - I repeat - not relevant at all.
Your personal bias towards one and away from the other - is just that. Personal bias. And as such not really relevant to the discussion at hand.
As I've stated before I see the root problem as power imbalances, poor or nonexistent respect for boundaries, and lack of consent as the root cause of all sexual harms. There are very limited scenarios where incestuous relationships would, in theory, circumvent all these harms.
Who's boundaries though? I think it behooves us to be sure of that when discussing it. As often when we discuss the crossing of boundaries in relationships - we run the risk of projecting our own boundaries onto people who do not share them. We see this often on - for example - discussions on the relationships forums about people in relationships who spend time with friends of the opposite sex. The people who say this is wrong as it is crossing a boundary - often fail to notice that they have boundaries the people doing it do not themselves have.
Power imbalance and informed consent are certainly issues to be aware of in our world though. Not at all just related to incest. In fact there are areas where I think it more of a problem than incest. Many people entering into a relationship in the working environment for example do so in situations where there is a power imbalance in the work place.
But two consenting adults who form a romantic and sexual relationship despite being siblings is not the first scenario that screams at me about power imbalances or consent issues. First cousins even less so - whereas an aunt/uncle with a niece/nephew might be more so. The problem there I think is linguistic rather than sexual. In that we have one catch-all term "incest" referring to a rather wide diversity of scenarios.
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Originally Posted by mordant
That is not to say I feel particularly sympathetic to the problems encountered by such couples who are "out" about it -- given that from the whole universe of potential intimate partners, they willingly chose as they did
I do not know what relationships you are in - or have been in. So I must point out that I am _only_ speaking about myself here. But I can describe the relationships I have been in as a wholly "willing choice". I did not look at my current partners and say "Yes - I choose them - now I will flick the love switch in my brain and turn on the love function for them". Love chose me - and I had barely a say in it.
Of course I had then a say in what I did _with_ those emotions once I had them. But love as you may know from personal experience tends to over ride rationality and free choice - or at least make them exceedingly difficult.
I rather suspect that many sibling consenting adults who are currently in relationships with each other do not view much of how their relationship developed in terms of "choices".
Both Nozzferrahhtoo and monumentus have been members of City-Data for many years and have been regular contributors in the Religion and Spirituality forums. Maybe they haven't been as active since you've been a member, but these things come and go. Sometimes, people are away from the forums for long periods of time for a wide variety of reasons. I've started to wonder where Nozz was since he wasn't posting recently, and it's good to see monumentus contributing.
Of course I am aware of the reasons for it - but the point is that it still happens despite your original claims we "wont find it" anywhere.
Barking up a dead tree.
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Originally Posted by monumentus
It simply is not as unique or rare as you are pretending.
It is simply not as common in other species as you want to try and portray here. I suggest you take some time to do research on this.
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Originally Posted by monumentus
Why should your revulsion be the arbiter of what is right and wrong? Especially when there exists people like myself who can maintain a healthy separation between what is
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Originally Posted by Matadora
Show me where I made such a claim that my revulsion makes me the arbiter of what is right and wrong.
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Originally Posted by monumentus
Pull your neck in - I am referring to mentioning your personal disgust towards incest at all and how relevant (that is to say irrelevant) it actually is.
Do learn how to keep up. I was commenting on your assumptive question.
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Originally Posted by monumentus
Yes and water is wet. But when we get past stating the blatantly obvious at each other the point still remains. Which was that the existence of _personal disgust_ about incest is as relevant here as it is to the morality of homosexuality. That is to say - I repeat - not relevant at all.
Interesting that I don't feel the same type of revulsion in entertaining the thought of incest with a blood relative vs. engaging in an intimate relationship with a person that I would never ever consider being involved with intimately. My revulsion towards incest is on a completely different level...I feel this revulsion in the core of my being. This feeling is what most humans feel when encountering something that is innately wrong.
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Originally Posted by monumentus
Your personal bias towards one and away from the other - is just that. Personal bias. And as such not really relevant to the discussion at hand.
The fact that you defend incest is nothing more then your personal bias.
Barking up a dead tree. It is simply not as common in other species as you want to try and portray here. I suggest you take some time to do research on this.
Except I never claimed it was all that common. I said quite the opposite. So you are now modifying my points to attack a new version of what I did not actually say. Here are my words again "I think it occurs much more often than you seem to want to admit - but certainly not common enough that we can disagree about it simply not being statistically normal.
How exactly is that me wanting to portray it as more common than it is? Especially given the only one who needed to do any research is _you_ as you were the only one who claimed we would not find it - but then I rubbished that claim by mentioning bonobos and the banded mongoose. So I guess I suggest you take some time to do research on this and do learn to keep up.
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Originally Posted by Matadora
Interesting that I don't feel the same type of revulsion in entertaining the thought of incest with a blood relative vs. engaging in an intimate relationship with a person that I would never ever consider being involved with intimately.
Again with the appeals to your own personal disgust. Which is irrelevant. You being disgusted by something is not relevant to whether that something is morally wrong or not. Nor - despite your fantasy - is there any personal bias in play on my part because - you might have forgotten I mentioned this - I share your personal revulsion. Do learn to keep up.
The reason I "defend" incest is that when sexual relationships are fully consensual then I see no moral argument against them. Nothing to do with bias and everything to do with a full subscription to the concept of sexual consent. The thread is about whether incest is morally wrong or not - and if the sole information you can offer in the discussion of a fully consensual sexual relationship is that _You_ find it revolting - then you have not really offered anything on the topic.
But again - there are people who are just as revolted or even more so by the thought of engaging in homosexual sex. They might want to declare it "innately wrong" by fiat too. But their personal revulsion - like yours - does not magically make such sex immoral.
Again with the appeals to your own personal disgust. Which is irrelevant. You being disgusted by something is not relevant to whether that something is morally wrong or not. ...
The reason I "defend" incest is that when sexual relationships are fully consensual then I see no moral argument against them. Nothing to do with bias and everything to do with a full subscription to the concept of sexual consent. The thread is about whether incest is morally wrong or not - and if the sole information you can offer in the discussion of a fully consensual sexual relationship is that _You_ find it revolting - then you have not really offered anything on the topic.
But again - there are people who are just as revolted or even more so by the thought of engaging in homosexual sex. They might want to declare it "innately wrong" by fiat too. But their personal revulsion - like yours - does not magically make such sex immoral.
No, sorry, but in terms of personal disgust and whether that indicates something is or is not moral, you're wrong. The definition of morality is: "a particular system of values and principles of conduct, especially one held by a specified person or society." So what we really have when we talk about morality are two levels -- a personal level and a societal level.
As to my own opinion, incest doesn't seem to me to be a healthy emotional relationship. Should it be illegal? Probably not, assuming it's consensual, EXCEPT in the case of when children might be born out of incest since we know that birth defects increase when children are born out of incest.
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