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I'm late to this particular party, but to the point of Viz's claim of hypocrisy, it seems to me that the definition of bigotry is what is at issue. Is bigotry what a particular group asserts it to be, or does society have a broad consensus of how to identify it correctly?
Bigotry is not disagreeing with someone, or assessing the rightness or wrongness of their position. It is intolerance toward those who don't hold your opinion. Unpacking it another level, intolerance in this context is now allowing others to live or behave in ways that you yourself don't choose to live or behave. It is the absence of "live and let live", it is the imposition of your morality on others.
As has been made abundantly and repeatedly clear, in stating that many of the views of fundamentalist Christianity are bigoted, people outside that movement are not asking fundamentalists to engage in behavior they find abhorrent, they are simply asking them to impose their values and views on themselves, and not on others. That is why they are perfectly free to be bigoted to their own members or in deciding who gets to join the club; they simply don't get to try to control behavior and values outside the club.
I would ask you to turn it around and look at those that don't agree with us "fundamentalists". They are just as intolerant -- but it's that their definition of bigotry is different. And they cannot fathom the idea that their definition is not universally held.
I would ask you to turn it around and look at those that don't agree with us "fundamentalists". They are just as intolerant -- but it's that their definition of bigotry is different. And they cannot fathom the idea that their definition is not universally held.
Please see my edit to the post you're replying to, particularly the last paragraph.
You can be as bigoted as you want so long as it is not imposed on the rest of society. The key difference is that no one is making you be, accept, approve of, or allow homosexuality within your group.
I'm late to this particular party, but to the point of Viz's claim of hypocrisy, it seems to me that the definition of bigotry is what is at issue. Is bigotry what a particular group asserts it to be, or does society have a broad consensus of how to identify it correctly?
Bigotry is not disagreeing with someone, or assessing the rightness or wrongness of their position. It is intolerance toward those who don't hold your opinion. Unpacking it another level, intolerance in this context is not allowing others to live or behave in ways that you yourself don't choose to live or behave. It is the absence of "live and let live", it is the imposition of your morality on others.
As has been made abundantly and repeatedly clear, in stating that many of the views of fundamentalist Christianity are bigoted, people outside that movement are not asking fundamentalists to engage in behavior they find abhorrent, they are simply asking them to impose their values and views on themselves, and not on others. That is why they are perfectly free to be bigoted to their own members or in deciding who gets to join the club; they simply don't get to try to control behavior and values outside the club.
And no, allowing (for example) a homosexual to marry does not impose anything whatsoever on people who think homosexuality is sinful. No one is made to be homosexual, no one is force to officiate at homosexual weddings, no one is forced to approve of homosexuality. They simply aren't allowed to impose heterosexual norms and deny rights to homosexuals outside their private clubs. Acknowledging the right of others to live as they please is not an imposition. Allowing you to hold a position that is an increasingly marginalized and uncomfortable minority position is not an imposition (other than a self imposed one).
I couldn't rep again, so I just re-posted for the truth of it. Well and truly said.
Please see my edit to the post you're replying to, particularly the last paragraph.
You can be as bigoted as you want so long as it is not imposed on the rest of society. The key difference is that no one is making you be, accept, approve of, or allow homosexuality within your group.
I saw that last paragraph. And your response here illustrates my point. You state we are bigoted. I get that. You fail to recognize the very point you made -- that the definition of bigotry is different for different people. The very act of calling us bigoted for not agreeing with you, and telling us "you can be bigoted OVER THERE in your own little group", is bigotry. No one is suggesting we stone or kill gay people. But we are voters that have a right as US citizens to be represented in our government. To simply write us off and marginalize us because we do not agree with you while claiming we are bigoted is hypocrisy.
I saw that last paragraph. And your response here illustrates my point. You state we are bigoted. I get that. You fail to recognize the very point you made -- that the definition of bigotry is different for different people.
Really, it isn't. Bigotry is the identification of a group as "lesser" or not worthy of equal rights and treatment as other groups. Enacting legislation or social mores based on that is what we call discrimination.
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The very act of calling us bigoted for not agreeing with you, and telling us "you can be bigoted OVER THERE in your own little group", is bigotry.
Really, it isn't. It is an apt description of people who espouse bigoted, discriminatory ideals coupled with the acknowledgement that you are free to espouse those ideals.
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No one is suggesting we stone or kill gay people.
Actually, there are people who call for the death of gay people. Some are religious and some are not.
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But we are voters that have a right as US citizens to be represented in our government.
Absolutely you do. 100%. And you can find and vote for legislators who share your view that homosexuals should be precluded from having the same rights and freedoms as others. I encourage you TO find and vote for these people if they share your views on this. That doesn't make those views less than bigoted, however.
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To simply write us off and marginalize us because we do not agree with you...
Nobody is doing this. You are free to believe whatever you want. Nobody is forcing you to be homosexual or change your beliefs. The fact is, though, that your beliefs, taken to fruition and made into laws, would negatively impact the freedoms and rights of others.
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...while claiming we are bigoted is hypocrisy.
Again, pointing out the bigotry clearly espoused by a person does not make the person pointing out that bigotry either a bigot or a hypocrite.
Really, it isn't. Bigotry is the identification of a group as "lesser" or not worthy of equal rights and treatment as other groups. Enacting legislation or social mores based on that is what we call discrimination.
And that is exactly what you're saying to us when you tell us that our views are lesser or not worthy. The sad thing is, you are not able to comprehend that.
And that is exactly what you're saying to us when you tell us that our views are lesser or not worthy. The sad thing is, you are not able to comprehend that.
What you cannot comprehend is that I never said such a thing. You are fully free to hold whatever views you wish. Your views regarding homosexuals and equal right and treatment, however, happen to be bigoted and discriminatory. Nobody is saying you can't hold such opinions or have those feelings.
I'm not even saying these views of yours are "lesser or not worthy" simply because I disagree with them. I have plenty of flaws and, I'm sure, opinions many others would consider hairbrained.
That does not make your specific views on this specific issue less bigoted.
Nobody says you can't hold to any opinion you want. Nobody is attempting to do anything to you or anyone who shares your beliefs.
I saw that last paragraph. And your response here illustrates my point. You state we are bigoted. I get that. You fail to recognize the very point you made -- that the definition of bigotry is different for different people. The very act of calling us bigoted for not agreeing with you, and telling us "you can be bigoted OVER THERE in your own little group", is bigotry. No one is suggesting we stone or kill gay people. But we are voters that have a right as US citizens to be represented in our government. To simply write us off and marginalize us because we do not agree with you while claiming we are bigoted is hypocrisy.
Viz, a bigot is NOT a bigot because they disagree with me. They're a bigot for fitting the definition of "bigot" which I delineated in my post -- they are intolerant of behavior they disapprove of in the sense that they try to control it and impose their values on the person doing the disapproved behavior.
Disagree with me all you want and I won't call you bigoted. Try to force me or someone else to live by your ruleset or deny to others privileges / equality that you enjoy, and I WILL call it bigoted.
The definition of what is considered acceptable behavior is what varies from person to person, and that is fine within the bounds of your own social group if you want to be more restrictive than society at large. You don't have to practice or approve of (say) homosexuality or a broader definition of marriage. You just have to allow others to thread that needle for themselves and afford them the same rights you enjoy. That's just playing nice in the sandbox.
And yes you have a right to vote and argue for anything you want. You have a voice in society too, the same as me or anyone else. No one is saying otherwise, although some may think some of the things you advocate are not conducive to civil society and bringing people together to solve mutual problems rather than driving them apart over wedge issues. That is part of the societal discourse that gives rise to societal morality -- even people who deny the validity or existence of societal morality participate in its formation.
So to summarize ... you're not a bigot if you disagree with me, or have a different value or practice than me. You are only a bigot if you try to force me to abide by your values or practices rather than allowing me to make those decisions for myself. Bigotry is not disagreement; it's a violation of the personal boundaries of another human. It's an inappropriate intrusion into the personal decision space of others.
One of the reasons you have trouble seeing this is that you've abrogated your own personal decision space to an ideology that demands that abrogation. Since you have abrogated the privilege (and responsibility) to make your own moral determinations in large swaths of your life, you probably see no reason why others shouldn't do so as well. Particularly since what you have given yourself up to is clearly in your mind the only valid option. I also understand the various slippery-slope concerns that if you don't "take a stand against" or seem to "tolerate" "sin" that it will eventually effect your existence when god brings on the apocalypse of judgment for national sin and punishes you along with us reprobates. Nevertheless the fact remains that it is not for you to force us to follow your strictures or practices, and doing so is ... bigoted.
The purposes of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, Inc., as stated in its bylaws, are to promote the constitutional principle of separation of state and church, and to educate the public on matters relating to nontheism. https://ffrf.org/faq
All you have to do is browse their website and find it littered with anti-religion mainly Christian garbage. Here's just one example:
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You can rely on as many myths about original sin and free will as you like, but none of these illustrates anything but an arrogant, conceited and self-righteous creator. Or to put it another way, what kind of sick, twisted bastard would allow these atrocious things to happen on his watch? And who, in any of the above scenarios and countless others, is "handling" what God has "given" them?
Does that sound like the opinion of a benign non-biased organization that holds no grudge against CHRISTIANITY? Do some research before branding me a liar.
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