I'm right and you're wrong. Deal with it. (Mormon, America, Muslims)

[bulmabriefs144]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Having been an active participant on these forums for eight years now, it recently occurred to me that it is the people who are the least secure in their own beliefs who are the most judgmental and condemning of others. Those who are the most secure in their own beliefs seem to be the most willing to look at alternative perspectives with an open mind and a sincere interest in learning something new. They are willing to defend their own position, but they do not feel the continual need to tell everybody else, "You don't really know God. But I do, so shut up and listen to me. I'm gonna tell you how it is."

Thoughts?

(Oops. I put this in the Christianity forum. I meant to put it in the general religion forum, because I think atheists and other non-Christians can be guilty of this as well as Christians.)

Says a person who opened their thread with the title I'm Right And You're Wrong.

Lets put it this way. I could be perfectly content in a world where everyone just did their own thing in terms of religion. This is cool.

But on a given day, you see about ten or twelve threads trying to disprove religion. Lets see here: Absurb (sic) stories from the Bible, Why Science is Important In Religious Discussions, Are The Gospels Credible, this thread, Why Did God Allow The Holocaust To Happen just in about the first 15 threads. And often there's more.

I dont care how secure in your faith you are, this stuff comes across as a sort of intimidation (in the original sense of the word). Either some people speak up, or everyone else walks away with the feeling "am I the only one who thinks differently? Am I strange?" Just as there is a no proselytizing note on the atheism thread, there is also a no attacking people's beliefs on religion threads. Read it please.

You can call people insecure about their faith, but imagine how secure you're likely to be if you can't wish people Merry Christmas because it "might offend" Muslims or Jews. Or told that youre not allowed to wear a religious necklace when its a simple cross but other people get away with a full religious uniform.

So no, I would think placing this in the Christianity section would possibly seriously tick ppl off. Also, close this thread. Now.

Moderator cut: Political remarks removed.

[badlander]

Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144

Says a person who opened their thread with the title I'm Right And You're Wrong.

Lets put it this way. I could be perfectly content in a world where everyone just did their own thing in terms of religion. This is cool.

But on a given day, you see about ten or twelve threads trying to disprove religion. Lets see here: Absurb (sic) stories from the Bible, Why Science is Important In Religious Discussions, Are The Gospels Credible, this thread, Why Did God Allow The Holocaust To Happen just in about the first 15 threads. And often there's more.

I dont care how secure in your faith you are, this stuff comes across as a sort of intimidation (in the original sense of the word). Either some people speak up, or everyone else walks away with the feeling "am I the only one who thinks differently? Am I strange?" Just as there is a no proselytizing note on the atheism thread, there is also a no attacking people's beliefs on religion threads. Read it please.

You can call people insecure about their faith, but imagine how secure you're likely to be if you can't wish people Merry Christmas because it "might offend" Muslims or Jews. Or told that youre not allowed to wear a religious necklace when its a simple cross but other people get away with a full religious uniform.

So no, I would think placing this in the Christianity section would possibly seriously tick ppl off. Also, close this thread. Now.

Moderator cut: Political remarks removed.

In my opinion the OP was much more civil, less bias and much less judgemental in her post then you are in yours.

[zthatzmanz28]

Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144

Says a person who opened their thread with the title I'm Right And You're Wrong.

Lets put it this way. I could be perfectly content in a world where everyone just did their own thing in terms of religion. This is cool.

But on a given day, you see about ten or twelve threads trying to disprove religion. Lets see here: Absurb (sic) stories from the Bible, Why Science is Important In Religious Discussions, Are The Gospels Credible, this thread, Why Did God Allow The Holocaust To Happen just in about the first 15 threads. And often there's more.

I dont care how secure in your faith you are, this stuff comes across as a sort of intimidation (in the original sense of the word). Either some people speak up, or everyone else walks away with the feeling "am I the only one who thinks differently? Am I strange?" Just as there is a no proselytizing note on the atheism thread, there is also a no attacking people's beliefs on religion threads. Read it please.

You can call people insecure about their faith, but imagine how secure you're likely to be if you can't wish people Merry Christmas because it "might offend" Muslims or Jews. Or told that youre not allowed to wear a religious necklace when its a simple cross but other people get away with a full religious uniform.

So no, I would think placing this in the Christianity section would possibly seriously tick ppl off. Also, close this thread. Now.

Moderator cut: Political remarks removed.

Isn't that what you believe? You are right and everyone who disagrees with you is wrong?

[mordant]

Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144

He wasnt being civil. He was being a weasel. A person who doesnt even have the emotional honesty to come out and directly say whats bothering him, so he hides behind soft-souunding words. Of all people, this is the sort of person least worthy of praise.

Katzpur is a she and her post was entirely honest and your accusations are entirely scurrilous. The shame is yours, my friend.

Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144

Civil people don't accuse everyone else of being overly judgemental (an extremely judgemental statement or blanket approach). Nor do they accuse people of being weak-faithed or hypocritical.

I'm afraid you're quite mistaken here. If a belief or argument IS in fact judgmental or hypocritical then what is actually uncivil is to allow it to continue unchallenged. The very nature of uncivil discourse is dishonest discourse. It is faux civility for everyone to bow and scrape to each other, issuing insincere kudos to each other's magnificence lest there ever be heard a discouraging word. We are supposed to be adults who can handle an adult conversation.

Civil discourse is about not attacking people. It does not prohibit attacking ideas, particularly when they are harmful. But even with respect to people, it is not about rolling over and pretending that they have not transgressed healthy personal boundaries, for example. But like many people, you cannot distinguish between disagreement with your ideas, and personal attacks.

Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144

I worked an honest day's work despite having a bad cough, came home to chores, and this stuff. No.

Poor thing.

[badlander]

Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144

He wasnt being civil. He was being a weasel. A person who doesnt even have the emotional honesty to come out and directly say whats bothering him, so he hides behind soft-souunding words. Of all people, this is the sort of person least worthy of praise.

Civil people don't accuse everyone else of being overly judgemental (an extremely judgemental statement or blanket approach). Nor do they accuse people of being weak-faithed or hypocritical.

With so-called civil words he did all three in about one paragraph, wrote "Thoughts?" to disguise what was an accusation as an agree/disagree article, and then named specifically the people he was judging.

I worked an honest day's work despite having a bad cough, came home to chores, and this stuff. No.

I believe what want, you believe you want, and we're cool. Ppl go picking fights, and yeah we have words about it. Nothing civil about this. Moderator cut: Discussing moderator actions.

I understood what and in many cases who she was referring to. Katzpur has been open about her faith and her religion, one that is often spoken of disparaging but I do not recall her ever telling others that she is right and that they must lack the intelligence if they do not agree. A listing of all the people who do think everyone else is wrong because those people do not believe exactly what the person does would no doubt miss some and maybe include others. And the list would also include some non believers as well who mock all those that do believe.

I will take Katzpur s posts over yours any day of the week as far as civility and clarity goes. But maybe where you come from calling others weaeals is not an insult. I have not thought much of your arguments to this date, your posts on this thread speak of your character . I am disappointed but not surprised. Go back and reread what her point of this thread was, not just the headine.

[Vizio]

Originally Posted by mordant

Religious faith (belief without a requirement of substantiation) is a totally failed epistemology that does not lead in the direction of actual truth. It starts with conclusions rather than arriving at them.

Free rational inquiry on the other hand starts with evidence and arrives at conclusions from there (or in the event there is no evidence, makes no conclusion at all beyond that a thing that isn't evidenced is highly unlikely to be true).

So when will the atheists on the board start practicing "free rational inquiry"? I haven't seen a lot of free thinking among them.

[Vizio]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

What? What on earth would make you say that? I mentioned no names and I mentioned no specific denominations or even general classifications of Christians. I merely made an observation regarding the tendency of some people on this forum to be very judgmental of others. Are you telling me that there are no judgmental people here? If you disagree with what I said about judgmental people, then debate that point. Don't automatically assume I was calling you out.

I realize you were not likely calling me out--we haven't had a lot of exchanges lately, and I have no issues with you personally.

I'm just saying that to make a post calling people judgmental is, in effect, being judgmental.

I stand by my original statement that people who are the most confident in their beliefs are generally not as condemning of others as those who feel they have something to prove. It seems to me that some people's self-esteem rides almost solely on how well they see themselves as being able to "win the debate." They absolutely have to be undercutting other people's beliefs in order to feel confident that their own beliefs are valid.

You seem to be able to judge the self-confidence of others, and by that virtue, you are judging motive. That's what I have an issue with. You don't know what exactly people are thinking, you're making assumptions about them with that statement.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Having been an active participant on these forums for eight years now, it recently occurred to me that it is the people who are the least secure in their own beliefs who are the most judgmental and condemning of others. Those who are the most secure in their own beliefs seem to be the most willing to look at alternative perspectives with an open mind and a sincere interest in learning something new. They are willing to defend their own position, but they do not feel the continual need to tell everybody else, "You don't really know God. But I do, so shut up and listen to me. I'm gonna tell you how it is."

Thoughts?

(Oops. I put this in the Christianity forum. I meant to put it in the general religion forum, because I think atheists and other non-Christians can be guilty of this as well as Christians.)

My experience is that most people believe whatever it is that they believe because they have been conditioned from their earliest memory that their particular belief is not only true, but undeniably and unarguably true. And that works pretty well for them as long as they don't expose their belief system to any actual open factual criticism from others. It's at the point that they begin to witness their claims and their beliefs systematically destroyed factually and logically that they begin to get defensive and judgmental. And that's when discussions begin to turn into a process of facts and logic versus "No, no, no! I KNOW what's true, so shut up and believe on faith like you are supposed to."

[badlander]

Originally Posted by Vizio

So when will the atheists on the board start practicing "free rational inquiry"? I haven't seen a lot of free thinking among them.

I read threads in the Christianity forum and occasionally the Judaism forum, I've been to church services, I have read countless articles and numerous books on ID creationism and the global flood and more often than not go to the links that religious and non religious posters provide. I have learnt much from this forum about Mormonism, how fundamentalist view the world and how some posters believe that those that believe in the same God but slightly different are supposedly not only wrong but blind to being wrong. I have even been forced to research about pantheism, several of the events and nations of the Bible and some philosophy terms just to be able to understand where others are coming from.

Free rational inquiry would include checking out the claims made by others and then evaluating those claims. I have even gone back to Darwin's book to see what a quote was about that was actually take out of context. If some of those who make claims against science, atheists or other religions than many conversations would be more productive.

If you might think that free rational inquiry would necessarily lead to believing in your brand of Christianity you would be wrong. Until the religious understand that your belief is not evidence we are at an impasse. And several atheists dismiss outright any basis for your beliefs. I do not share their view however I also did not share their religious upbringing.

I will disagree with what is offered as proofs, or where morality comes from or how much of one's religion should be played upon others but I will not tell you that you are wrong in believing that there is a God. When someone like Jeff tells me I hate God because I don't agree with him on an issue or MysticPhD or Bulmabeliefs tells me that I lack the ability to understand that there is a god they are acting in the manner that the OP calls out. And in the case of MysticPhD I agree with so many of his posts and find some others insulting so it's not a matter of being on opposite teams as everyone is an individual.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144

Says a person who opened their thread with the title I'm Right And You're Wrong.

I wouldn't have thought anyone would miss the sarcasm in the title of my thread. Sorry you did.

Lets put it this way. I could be perfectly content in a world where everyone just did their own thing in terms of religion. This is cool.

Yes, it would be very, very cool. It would take a lot of work on everyone's part, but wouldn't it be great?

But on a given day, you see about ten or twelve threads trying to disprove religion. Lets see here: Absurb (sic) stories from the Bible, Why Science is Important In Religious Discussions, Are The Gospels Credible, this thread, Why Did God Allow The Holocaust To Happen just in about the first 15 threads. And often there's more.

Of course we all have differences of opinions, and for many people (including me), their religious beliefs are very important to them. My religion pretty much influences every aspect of my life. In other words, it's not just one little compartment, along with other little compartments -- family, career, civic responsibilities, etc. I believe very strongly in the truths I see my religion as teaching. Most other people think my religion is completely nuts. I'm always ready to "defend" my beliefs, but it drives me crazy when people present their opinions as if they were fact; hence the title of my thread, which went right over your head.

I dont care how secure in your faith you are, this stuff comes across as a sort of intimidation (in the original sense of the word). Either some people speak up, or everyone else walks away with the feeling "am I the only one who thinks differently? Am I strange?" Just as there is a no proselytizing note on the atheism thread, there is also a no attacking people's beliefs on religion threads. Read it please.

I don't need to read it. You need to stop being on the defensive and look at what I really said.

You can call people insecure about their faith, but imagine how secure you're likely to be if you can't wish people Merry Christmas because it "might offend" Muslims or Jews. Or told that youre not allowed to wear a religious necklace when its a simple cross but other people get away with a full religious uniform.

Again, you missed the point. We can all believe differently and we can all be secure in what we believe (including atheists), and we can engage in civil, adult debate without being jerks. My point was that I believe it's those who are the least secure in their own beliefs who are the biggest jerks.

So no, I would think placing this in the Christianity section would possibly seriously tick ppl off. Also, close this thread. Now.

I think you missed the entire point of my thread. You managed to turn it upside down and inside out. I don't have any control whatsoever as to whether this thread remains open or closed. But since it appears to be upsetting you so much, perhaps you might want to consider just ignoring the fact that it's here.