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Not sure how this addresses what we were talking about - i.e. that the God that would punish people to hell or even kill an innocent child simply because of the sins of the father is vindictive and frankly, evil in my mind.
That is not love anymore than a parent who allows their child to suffer great pain and anguish simply to "teach the child a lesson" shows love. Not love; sounds more like child abuse to me.
God does not punish people. And He does not send people to hell, they will go there by their own choice, because they rejected the free gift of eternal life through Jesus that He offers.
you were wanting to describe the God i believe in, and therefore what i posted was relevant.
If you wish to put your opinion of what i believe out there, be ready for me to correct your perception.
Actually I wanted you to address the concerns we were discussing. Just posting a bunch of scripture without any explanations on how such scripture applies to your argument simply fails to do this.
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Originally Posted by freedom
As to people and children our whole society is based on joy and pain, punishment (as you call it) and reward. Why single out your perception of God to just him.
If a parent is negligent and leaves a gun out, and the child kills themselves did God do that? Or are we here to learn by hands on experiences. To say God causes all suffering is just not accurate.
Well if you believe in a God that interacts with society, at the very least he implicitly allows that suffering to occur (again, failure to mitigate). Such a God has the power to stop the suffering of the innocent but fails to do so. That's simply not something I see as moral or right.
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Originally Posted by freedom
I would say that if that same parent were being led by the holy spirit, they would be more likely to know and be prompted by the spirit to act in a responsible manner, like putting the gun away in a safe place, away from the child.
Stillness and having ears to hear has saved my life on a number of occasions and has helped me in relationships, business, and ofcourse my belief. With out that constant companionship and spiritual education my life would be hell on earth.
Only God can bring the peace that passes understanding. In that he passes His wisdom on to us, so we understand the school we are attending.
godspeed,
freedom
Let me use a form of your hypothetical to address my point. Let's say there is a parent who has two children. One child is say four and the other two. The older child is innocently playing with a handgun by pointing it at the younger child, not knowing that it is dangerous. The parent is in the other room and notices the situation but instead of rushing into the room to the children and grabbing the weapon, the parent thinks "Well, he just needs to learn that guns are dangerous." The parent does nothing and the older child accidentally shoots the younger child killing him. The parent would of course be hauled off to jail for such actions.
This is in essence what God is doing. In the name of punishment or "teaching a lesson" an active God allows bad things to occur against the innocent. Now, this may be teaching a lesson but it certainly is not moral or just.
Let me use a form of your hypothetical to address my point. Let's say there is a parent who has two children. One child is say four and the other two. The older child is innocently playing with a handgun by pointing it at the younger child, not knowing that it is dangerous. The parent is in the other room and notices the situation but instead of rushing into the room to the children and grabbing the weapon, the parent thinks "Well, he just needs to learn that guns are dangerous." The parent does nothing and the older child accidentally shoots the younger child killing him. The parent would of course be hauled off to jail for such actions.
This is in essence what God is doing. In the name of punishment or "teaching a lesson" an active God allows bad things to occur against the innocent. Now, this may be teaching a lesson but it certainly is not moral or just.
You're right this is not moral or just and God is not like that. Bad things happen because we live in a fallen sinful world.
Last edited by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA; 03-03-2008 at 04:47 PM..
Reason: left out word
You're right this is not moral or just and God is not like that. Bad things happen because we live in a fallen sinful world.
Well, if God is an active God (i.e. a God that can interact with the world) then that God would have the ability to change those "bad things." The fact that such a God doesn't means that he either can't interact with the world or he is immoral.
Actually I wanted you to address the concerns we were discussing. Just posting a bunch of scripture without any explanations on how such scripture applies to your argument simply fails to do this.
It was applicable to a loving God. Thats all.
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Well if you believe in a God that interacts with society, at the very least he implicitly allows that suffering to occur (again, failure to mitigate). Such a God has the power to stop the suffering of the innocent but fails to do so. That's simply not something I see as moral or right.
God interacts with those that seek and desire His guidance, what we have in this world is a lot of people that speak of God, but do very little to abide in His ways. Can we expect Him to be our butler and do everything for us when He has given us a mind, a conscience, the physical means to care for ourselves? He provides the food, we have to chew it and digest it. He provides the water, we have to drink it. I look at my Father in a much different way than you, I see that All that He has is ours, IF we choose to seek to know how it all works.
We had plenty of instruction before we ever got here, and we asked to come here, if that veil has not been removed from your consciousness, ask Him to remind you of that time, and He will.
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Let me use a form of your hypothetical to address my point. Let's say there is a parent who has two children. One child is say four and the other two. The older child is innocently playing with a handgun by pointing it at the younger child, not knowing that it is dangerous. The parent is in the other room and notices the situation but instead of rushing into the room to the children and grabbing the weapon, the parent thinks "Well, he just needs to learn that guns are dangerous." The parent does nothing and the older child accidentally shoots the younger child killing him. The parent would of course be hauled off to jail for such actions.
In your hypothesis God would not be God. He would be man.
God has provided all of us guidance, whether we choose to rely on it is a matter of choice. Do we desire to know Him, or do we desire to blame Him?
This is a dangerous world, it is not Disneyland. It was designed that way so we would be very attentive to the higher power guiding us "God". If we choose to tie one hand behind our back and ignore the help He provides, He allows us to do that. And clearly then we are responsible for the outcome.
Earth is our place of learning about physical, tangible things. It is not forever. When someone dies it is not over, God is fully aware of the consequences of our actions and His system to allow us to fail is actually rooted in Love.
Look how we come into the world, helpless...do all have loving parents? no...but most do. Can you make a child walk, or do they need to have the strength within to lift themselves up against the gravity in order to see the world differently...These steps multiply and are our legacy of our time here. If God wiped every sniffle, we would not grow strong. We are in fact given weaknesses that we may become strong.
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This is in essence what God is doing. In the name of punishment or "teaching a lesson" an active God allows bad things to occur against the innocent. Now, this may be teaching a lesson but it certainly is not moral or just.
God has stepped in and helped me so many times in my life, but only when i called out to Him for His help. If you have never had a reason to call out to God for help, then I am truly sorry... the knowing He is there, is beyond expression, and it is awesome.
How would you do God's job. How would you raise up a trillion offspring to be like you?
Well, if God is an active God (i.e. a God that can interact with the world) then that God would have the ability to change those "bad things." The fact that such a God doesn't means that he either can't interact with the world or he is immoral.
He does have the ability to change those bad things into good Romans 8:28 "And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to His purpose for them". Notice that says for the ones who love God.
He does have the ability to change those bad things into good Romans 8:28 "And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to His purpose for them". Notice that says for the ones who love God.
Amen, He does.....and your right, love is the key to God's grace and support.
He does have the ability to change those bad things into good Romans 8:28 "And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to His purpose for them". Notice that says for the ones who love God.
So I guess the young child who is born with terrible birth defects, dying soon after birth didn't "love God" and therefore that is why God didn't change things in that situation and alleviate the innocent child's suffering and death?
So I guess the young child who is born with terrible birth defects, dying soon after birth didn't "love God" and therefore that is why God didn't change things in that situation and alleviate the innocent child's suffering and death?
What was the cause of the birth defects?
Remember man making DDT nearly made the Bald Eagle extinct.
godspeed,
So I guess the young child who is born with terrible birth defects, dying soon after birth didn't "love God" and therefore that is why God didn't change things in that situation and alleviate the innocent child's suffering and death?
Again, more results of living in a fallen sinful world. No matter how deep the pain, God is a God of comfort and whatever we go through He is there. Nothing is too big for Him.
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