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Doesn't rule out any possibility of any conjecture of what happens after death. We don't know, we can't know.its all conjecture..anything is possible including things we can't even imagine.. Or talking about it in any other way than - I wonder if anything happens and if so what, with no conclusions since there can be none. That's what my personal definition of agnostic. I spend most of my time wondering why everyone "KNOWS!" so hard, talks about it so much. To me atheism is sort of a religion that way.
It is most certainly not conjecture to assume that nothing happens after death.
Everything we know about consciousness is that it is the result of physical interactions between the physical components of the brain. Insisting that is is pure conjecture to assume that consciousness ceases when those physical components are destroyed is as nonsensical as insisting that we cannot know what operating systems run on a computer after that computer has been smashed into oblivion.
It is most certainly not conjecture to assume that nothing happens after death.
Everything we know about consciousness is that it is the result of physical interactions between the physical components of the brain. Insisting that is is pure conjecture to assume that consciousness ceases when those physical components are destroyed is as nonsensical as insisting that we cannot know what operating systems run on a computer after that computer has been smashed into oblivion.
Or put another way, reasonable assumptions does not equal conjecture.
The person you were replying to is correct in that they state that no one knows for sure if there is any form of afterlife. But this is very similar to theists claiming that no one can know with 100% certainty that there is or isn't a god. That is not a proper criticism of atheism as it's not a knowledge position, but a belief position. Nor is it a proper criticism of those who don't believe in any afterlife, that they can't know for sure. Because both god and afterlives are not falsifiable, therefore not subject to the scientific method, and therefore not subject to knowledge claims -- only to belief claims.
And then we come, yet again, to the question of what is an appropriate response to lack of evidence -- do we withhold belief in that situation, or do we guess at or concoct an answer and base belief on that.
We say of course that we do not deny God or know that there isn't one. In fact we come pretty close to it, for the reasons we have often explained.
We are as confident that the specific god of the Bible is no more real than Leprechauns or Santa. Which is why we use the Santa argument so much. When you look at all the 'evidence' it is little more than Myth.
But that's another thing. Simply not having faith in the Christian God doesn't automatically make you an atheist. There are many other gods to believe in. I personally disagree that even the Christian God is as illogical a myth as Santa Claus, but that argument aside, I certainly don't view a belief in a god in general as something comparable to a belief in Santa.
I don't go anywhere near saying there isn't a god. Why would I? I do not know. I'm an agnostic atheist, as are most of the atheists I've talked to.
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
It's exactly like Abiogenesis. Sure we do not know how Life started and a god might be possible in starting it off, but to claim that a start to life without a god doing it (when we have a feasible mechanism -which we don't have with Cosmic origins) is impossible is unreasonable and denialist.
I agree. Always like to point out to Christians who say "Atheists believe something came from nothing" that... so do they! They believe God was just there... that he came from nothing! So the next question would be, Is it more illogical to think this universe (as impressive as it is) came from nothing, or that an all-knowing all-powerful being (more impressive still than the universe) came from nothing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
In a way, the theist is abandoning the agnostic position and saying that they KNOW that a god had to start the Cosmos and Life and of course they do not know and the case based on rather simple - minded parochial mantras about 'Nothing can come from nothing' and 'Life cannot come from non -life' are no more than limited human views pressed into service as 'evidence'. Which it is not.
Good catch. I would say that theists and atheists alike would do well to not argue that anything has to be a single, certain way, that there can be no other possibility. There are always at least two.
I personally disagree that even the Christian God is as illogical a myth as Santa Claus
I do not disagree with that however. The claim there is a god and the claim there is a Santa are both made based on EXACTLY the same amount of arguments, evidence, data and reasoning. That is to say: None. So the two actually are logically equivalent to me. They are highly comparable.
I do not disagree with that however. The claim there is a god and the claim there is a Santa are both made based on EXACTLY the same amount of arguments, evidence, data and reasoning. That is to say: None. So the two actually are logically equivalent to me. They are highly comparable.
Highly comparable, yes. Both extremely illogical, no question about that. But the difference would be that we know what would constitute evidence for the existence of Santa (depending on which version of him you're thinking about), and we do not know what would constitute evidence of a god. This even rings true of the Christian God because of differing interpretations and translations of the Christian bible. They debate over everything; it's hard to even begin disproving every possibility here. But there are things to do with Santa that are necessarily part of the package. Things like him visiting practically every household in the world at Christmas? Fairly easy to confirm there is no evidence where it would be expected.
But there are things to do with Santa that are necessarily part of the package. Things like him visiting practically every household in the world at Christmas? Fairly easy to confirm there is no evidence where it would be expected.
Ah, but you are confusing just Santa with the man made beliefs about Santa.
(Sorry, couldn't resist)
Keep in mind, even if you can prove Daddy's the one that actually bought the bike and put it under the tree, there's nothing saying Santa didn't cause him to do that.
Ah, but you are confusing just Santa with the man made beliefs about Santa.
(Sorry, couldn't resist)
Keep in mind, even if you can prove Daddy's the one that actually bought the bike and put it under the tree, there's nothing saying Santa didn't cause him to do that.
Like I said, it is all part of the same package. I know of no other version of Santa Claus than the guy who delivers presents to people homes in the middle of the night. And I certainly don't know of any text regarding Santa that gives him the ability to control/influence others from afar.
If were going to compare a belief in the Christian God with St. Nicholas, or some such, then that's the name people should use in the analogy. But of course, that would hardly makes sense.
But the difference would be that we know what would constitute evidence for the existence of Santa (depending on which version of him you're thinking about)
And using the caveat you just put into the brackets we also know the same thing about god. It simply depends on the version. So again I find them equally comparable and devoid of logic. I do not see Santa as being in a operate set to the set "deities". I see him as essentially being a member of that set.
But that's another thing. Simply not having faith in the Christian God doesn't automatically make you an atheist. There are many other gods to believe in. I personally disagree that even the Christian God is as illogical a myth as Santa Claus, but that argument aside, I certainly don't view a belief in a god in general as something comparable to a belief in Santa.
I don't go anywhere near saying there isn't a god. Why would I? I do not know. I'm an agnostic atheist, as are most of the atheists I've talked to.
Quite right. In fact, we say that all God -believers are atheists. We just disbelieve in one more god than they do.
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I agree. Always like to point out to Christians who say "Atheists believe something came from nothing" that... so do they! They believe God was just there... that he came from nothing! So the next question would be, Is it more illogical to think this universe (as impressive as it is) came from nothing, or that an all-knowing all-powerful being (more impressive still than the universe) came from nothing?
Good catch. I would say that theists and atheists alike would do well to not argue that anything has to be a single, certain way, that there can be no other possibility. There are always at least two.
I am sorta tired of that argument because it goes no-where, nobody really knows anything about the realo trulo beginnings (before the Big bang) and the attempts to impose human limited common -sense conclusions on the matter (only when they suit the theist argument, of course) is tiresome. And the whole thing is irrelevant anyway since, as you say, it is Which God and which religion, that is the God -question that is not just an academic one.
It is not at all about what ones believes, but about what a bunch of people think they have everyone doing in order to get in the good books of this thing they believe in. The whole idea gets my militancy stirring.
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The whole idea gets my militancy stirring.
