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Old 01-21-2017, 09:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc View Post
Still the roman calender has been fixed a few times since these old days so there will be discrepancies in the dates
Pneuma's argument is that Josephus contradicts himself over his dates (we needn't worry about dating Cyrus - only what he says about the events of his own time) which is nothing to do with the Julian calendar. Nor is Raffs pointing out dating contradictions in the Bible.

And Pneuma's point was arguing away Josephus in order to make the Bible work, but I suspect you came out with a kneejerk apologetic about what you thought we were discussing.

There's an interesting..wel, I think it's interesting..,, sideline on Keyword exigesis. It is done by biblical apologists by picking up a keyword/phrase like "walking on water", "empty tomb", "Census of Quirinus" of "Judas' death" and trot out some stock excuse:

"Perhaps Jesus was near to land and waded", "The disciples couldn't have stolen the body", "There was a second census" and "He hung himself and the rope broke" whether that was the point of the discussion or not.
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Old 01-22-2017, 09:18 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
I thought you might ask. The point is that all the posts above are about the details - dating, feasibility of the astrologers linking some astronomical event with the prediction about a Jewish messiah etc. But, if they simply don't work to start off with, debating the details is pointless. And here I would argue, that no matter how you change the dating, if the census of Luke is associated with the Roman takeover of Judea through his reference in Acts to the revolt of Judas the Galilean, then it doesn't matter when herod died or whether the loyalty oath of 3 B.C was a registration requiring people to sign on at their home town, or a declaration of loyalty in the market -place or local temple - it can only be after the death of herod and the sacking of his son as ruler.

Which means that Matthew cannot be reconciled with Luke on dating, never mind the actual story (whether they moved house to Nazareth as in Matthew or went back to their home there as in Luke), and if you can't squeeze the events of Herod's final year and death into 4 B.C , you sure as hell can't shoehorn the visit of the magi the flight to Egypt and the return to Judea into Luke's week or so required for the circumcision before they returned to Nazareth.

Similarly, even if the astrologers were aware of the messiah prediction and linked it with some conjunction in the night sky (not a retrograde motion - Mars does that all the time and they would no more associate that with the long -awaited messiah than they would lunar eclipses) would they decide to trek to Judea to offer gifts, never mind worship? Not even Jews would worship the messiah. The story is written with the Christian interpretation of The Messiah in mind.

So you see the point - if the story does not work to start off with, arguing for a revision of the dating is academic. Which takes care of the question of Herod's death, and I am certainly open to a re-dating there, if only because the Loyalty oath was (apparently) 3 B.C and if it was Herod who fined the 6,000 Pharisees for refusing to take it, he was still alive after 4 B.C.

I think we can also pass over (no pun intended, I swear) the talk of Bible critics treating Josephus as a sort of Canonic Bible. He is by far the best source we have for the events of the time. The Gospels, demonstrably, are not.

That's if you agree the general sequence of events.
Sound as always me ol' mucker! Just more of the same old apologetics from him.
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Old 01-22-2017, 11:52 AM
 
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I think he was not only flogging a dead horse, but the wrong one. But I still value the work he made me do, sussing Josephus on the years 10 BC -10 AD and specifically the Dark ages of 4 -1 B.C, which i think I now understand better. Certainly Varus seems to have been left in charge of Syria as an unofficial 2nd term, which is why the years 4 -1 B.C don't have a governor. The 3 B.C loyalty oath was a new one, too, and though i don't think it works as a Lucan registration, it's all part of the picture. Then all those revolts have fallen into place and those years don't seem so dark after al.

Btw, I'm wondering whether anyone even cares about this subject enough to post more. Input, anyone?
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Old 07-25-2017, 12:50 PM
 
Location: Canada
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I brought this thread back up because in support of the historical parts recorded in the Gospels. I am not saying everything written in the gospels is historically accurate, but what I have written here has to many pieces of the puzzle for me to believe it is all just coincidence.
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Old 07-25-2017, 01:14 PM
 
Location: USA
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[quote=pneuma;46870825]Matthew’s account of the Nativity

"About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared." The Testimonium Flavianum of Josephus

If you are going to cast doubts on the reliability of the texts attributed to Josephus are you also willing to acknowledge, as the majority of historians do, that the so called Testimonium Flavianum of Josephus is not authentic but is the result later Christian revisionism?
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Old 07-25-2017, 02:03 PM
 
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I'll leave it to others to read through. I doubt that I can do more than repeat what i said as rebuttal to nativity factuality claims. Others can use from it whatever they like.
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Old 07-25-2017, 10:49 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post

If you are going to cast doubts on the reliability of the texts attributed to Josephus are you also willing to acknowledge, as the majority of historians do, that the so called Testimonium Flavianum of Josephus is not authentic but is the result later Christian revisionism?
I think it was this thread where, when pneuma thought that Josephus supported a historical Jesus, he claimed Josephus as a most reliable and trustworthy historian and yet, in another thread where he couldn't get Josephus to support his claim, he claimed that Josephus was an unreliable moron who was prone to mistakes, outright lying and making things up.

LOL! What a star!
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Old 07-26-2017, 03:12 AM
 
Location: Canada
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[quote=Tired of the Nonsense;48959516]
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Matthew’s account of the Nativity

"About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared." The Testimonium Flavianum of Josephus

If you are going to cast doubts on the reliability of the texts attributed to Josephus are you also willing to acknowledge, as the majority of historians do, that the so called Testimonium Flavianum of Josephus is not authentic but is the result later Christian revisionism?
Yes the TF is a christian interpolation. The James passage however is historically accurate.

Thus there is historical truth in Josephus, but he must be read with a critical eye.
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Old 07-26-2017, 06:28 AM
 
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Good man. You listen, and that makes your views the more credible.

I listen too, and I am inclined to credit the James passage where I previously did not. Of course, reading the passage of Josephus on this James, brother of Jesus (or "Christ" I still have nagging doubts about that as an interpolation) looks more like a power struggle between the Boethius clan and their grip on the High -priestship and possible rival claimants.

I did read somewhere that the Pharisees did for a while force the Sadducees (the Boethius clan, effectively) to accept a change in the dating of Jewish festivals.

This isn't of course Nativity -specific, but these topics do spread a bit.
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Old 07-06-2018, 04:34 AM
 
Location: Germany
2,346 posts, read 402,355 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
The atheist and most scholars of today use the historian Josephus to point out that the gospels nativity of Jesus is not historically accurate. They do so because of 3 things Josephus mentions.
1 being the eclipse
2 being the length of reign of Archelaus
3 being the date of the census believed to be in 6 C.E.
Fail one, we use more than three things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
What this amount to (and I have belabored this in the past) is that the atheists have made Josephus their bible of historical facts. Thus if anyone disagrees with what Josephus states; those disagreeing with Josephus are wrong and Josephus is correct.
Fail 2. We also use other sources that back up Josephus. Your need to misrepresent this is telling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Now I have heard atheist say many times that Christians cannot use the bible to defend the bible, the atheist call this circular reasoning. Yet when it come to Josephus that circular reasoning that they say the Christian cannot do with the bible the atheist does with Josephus; Because Josephus says something that is good enough for them.
Fail 3. Using the Bible to prove the Bible is circular. We are not using Josephus to prove Josephus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Before I go on with the evidence of whether the gospels are historically accurate or not I need to point out one other thing I have encountered in dealing with this subject is that the historians, scholars and atheists seem to have the habit of lumping together events that have nothing to do with each other. A prime example of this is they try to lump the census of 6 C.E. with what Luke says in his nativity.
Fail 4. So you ignore the evidence and your Bible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Another example is how they lump together Matthews’s nativity with that of Luke. In neither case can they be lumped together in the fashion that they do so, as the one is separated by about 8 or 9 years and the other is separated by about 2 years. Does one really then have to wonder why there is so much confusion concerning the historical accounts recorded in the gospels.
Fail 5. So Jesus was born twice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
However the historian, scholar and atheist today would point out that Cyrenius is the common link that lumps Luke gospel and Josephus tax account in 6 C.E. together as speaking of the same event. Now this might seem like a good argument for lumping Luke’s account and what Josephus says, but is it really? Using this same type of argument we could then say World War 1 and World War 2 are the same event as General George Patton was in both wars. True Patton was not a General in WW1 as he was in WW2, but then again Cyrenius was not a Governor in Luke’s account as he is in Josephus account. Therefore we can see that lumping together 2 separate events because someone is mentioned in both events would lead to nothing but confusion of the actual events. Yet this is what the historian, scholars and atheist of today have done and why there is so much confusion of the nativity events that took place.
So let’s proceed to the evidence.
Fail 6. Pure assertion. Quirinius conducted the census, therefore he must have been the governor, as Luke says, and despite your assertion to the contrary.
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