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Old 07-07-2018, 05:14 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,712 posts, read 4,121,530 times
Reputation: 389

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Yes, it means not backed up by evidence. Yet I provided that evidence, so clearly you are inventing excuses to avoid refuting what you can not.

I know, you spent three months fishing Christian web sites, only for someone in one afternoon to add evidence you missed out, refuting ALL your claims.

So once again you avoid the issue, just as you did with the 71 NT passages on the other thread (which hopefully I can return to once I have enough free time).

But the evidence is there for those honest enough to look.
What evidence did you back up?
All I see is unstainated claims you have made stating others said this or that but gave no actual evidence that they did.

You will notice that when I referanced josephus I actually backed up that reference with where it could be found.

Stating things without backing them up with references is makes your rebuttal nothing more then unstainated claims made by you.

Hope that is clear enough
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Old 07-07-2018, 07:34 AM
 
Location: Germany
3,952 posts, read 723,929 times
Reputation: 628
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
What evidence did you back up?
All I see is unstainated claims you have made stating others said this or that but gave no actual evidence that they did.

You will notice that when I referanced josephus I actually backed up that reference with where it could be found.

Stating things without backing them up with references is makes your rebuttal nothing more then unstainated claims made by you.

Hope that is clear enough
My references are Josephus, Tacitus, Cassius Dio (as I mentioned in my responses), the New Testament, and personal knowledge of retrograde motion and how the night sky looks (yes, I do astronomy as well), usw. And you can substantiate EVERYTHING I say by a) reading the sources for yourself, and b) by reading relevant histories (instead of christian web sites that have to omit certain facts).

But to make your work so much easier, Josephus in Jewish War (1.9-10) says Varus was Legate when Herod died, and Varus was Legate until 4 BC. This fact alone refutes the idea that Herod was alive AFTER that date.

Here are the relevant legates:

13-10 BC Marcus Titius
10-7 BC Sentius Saturninus
7-4 BC Quintilius Varus
4-1 BC Calpurnius Piso

Titius: Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 16.270-77 to 81; Strabo 16.1.28.

Saturninus: Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 16.277-81, 16.344, 17.6-7, 17.24, 17.57, Jewish War 1.577.

Varus: Josephus, Jewish War 1.617-39 and 2.66-80 , Jewish Antiquities 17.89-133, 17.221-23, 17.250-98; Velleius 2.117.2 (who was alive at the time); Tacitus, Historiae 5.9.2.

For all the governors (including Piso), see The Governors of Roman Syria from Augustus to Septimius Severus (25 BC to 25 AD) by Edward Dabrowa.

For the date of the consulship of Quirinius, try Dio Cassius 54.28.2 and Tacitus Annals 3.48.
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Old 07-07-2018, 10:51 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,712 posts, read 4,121,530 times
Reputation: 389
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
My references are Josephus, Tacitus, Cassius Dio (as I mentioned in my responses), the New Testament, and personal knowledge of retrograde motion and how the night sky looks (yes, I do astronomy as well), usw. And you can substantiate EVERYTHING I say by a) reading the sources for yourself, and b) by reading relevant histories (instead of christian web sites that have to omit certain facts).

But to make your work so much easier, Josephus in Jewish War (1.9-10) says Varus was Legate when Herod died, and Varus was Legate until 4 BC. This fact alone refutes the idea that Herod was alive AFTER that date.

Here are the relevant legates:

13-10 BC Marcus Titius
10-7 BC Sentius Saturninus
7-4 BC Quintilius Varus
4-1 BC Calpurnius Piso

Titius: Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 16.270-77 to 81; Strabo 16.1.28.

Saturninus: Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 16.277-81, 16.344, 17.6-7, 17.24, 17.57, Jewish War 1.577.

Varus: Josephus, Jewish War 1.617-39 and 2.66-80 , Jewish Antiquities 17.89-133, 17.221-23, 17.250-98; Velleius 2.117.2 (who was alive at the time); Tacitus, Historiae 5.9.2.

For all the governors (including Piso), see The Governors of Roman Syria from Augustus to Septimius Severus (25 BC to 25 AD) by Edward Dabrowa.

For the date of the consulship of Quirinius, try Dio Cassius 54.28.2 and Tacitus Annals 3.48.
Yup that is exactly what I thought. everything you used is based on, or off of, the works of Josephus and his chronological dating which I have already shown in over abundance cannot be trusted.

So like I said you really have nothing but Josephus.
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Old 07-07-2018, 11:59 AM
 
Location: Germany
3,952 posts, read 723,929 times
Reputation: 628
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Yup that is exactly what I thought. everything you used is based on, or off of, the works of Josephus and his chronological dating which I have already shown in over abundance cannot be trusted.

So like I said you really have nothing but Josephus.
And Strabo, and Tacitus, and Cassius Dio, and Velleius. What part of Josephus corroborated by Strabo, Tacitus, Cassius Dio and Velleius do you NOT understand?

Just for the Legates we have (once again):

Titius: Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 16.270-77 to 81; Strabo 16.1.28.

Saturninus: Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 16.277-81, 16.344, 17.6-7, 17.24, 17.57, Jewish War 1.577.

Varus: Josephus, Jewish War 1.617-39 and 2.66-80 , Jewish Antiquities 17.89-133, 17.221-23, 17.250-98; Velleius 2.117.2 (who was alive at the time); Tacitus, Historiae 5.9.2.

For the date of the consulship of Quirinius, try Dio Cassius 54.28.2 and Tacitus Annals 3.48.

You did not provide overwhelming evidence Josephus can not be trusted, you picked a few examples while ignoring 1) the many dates where he is corroborated, and 2) how Josephus used eyewitness accounts, and 3) how the three different dating methods account for the 1 year difference. A one year difference that gets you nowhere near 6 AD.

We also have the Roman laws, the Roman military structure, what the NT actually says, the eclipse of 5 BC (that you ignored). If I was to provide a reference to all of the evidence I have, I would have written a book. But I have no need, there are already books out there with this information for those willing to research.

It is not just me who has worked this out, there are historians who have been there before me. Historians your Christian sites you used for 'research' need to ignore.
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Old 07-07-2018, 12:23 PM
 
Location: Canada
6,712 posts, read 4,121,530 times
Reputation: 389
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
And Strabo, and Tacitus, and Cassius Dio, and Velleius. What part of Josephus corroborated by Strabo, Tacitus, Cassius Dio and Velleius do you NOT understand?

Just for the Legates we have (once again):

Titius: Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 16.270-77 to 81; Strabo 16.1.28.

Saturninus: Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 16.277-81, 16.344, 17.6-7, 17.24, 17.57, Jewish War 1.577.

Varus: Josephus, Jewish War 1.617-39 and 2.66-80 , Jewish Antiquities 17.89-133, 17.221-23, 17.250-98; Velleius 2.117.2 (who was alive at the time); Tacitus, Historiae 5.9.2.

For the date of the consulship of Quirinius, try Dio Cassius 54.28.2 and Tacitus Annals 3.48.

You did not provide overwhelming evidence Josephus can not be trusted, you picked a few examples while ignoring 1) the many dates where he is corroborated, and 2) how Josephus used eyewitness accounts, and 3) how the three different dating methods account for the 1 year difference. A one year difference that gets you nowhere near 6 AD.

We also have the Roman laws, the Roman military structure, what the NT actually says, the eclipse of 5 BC (that you ignored). If I was to provide a reference to all of the evidence I have, I would have written a book. But I have no need, there are already books out there with this information for those willing to research.

It is not just me who has worked this out, there are historians who have been there before me. Historians your Christian sites you used for 'research' need to ignore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Yup that is exactly what I thought. everything you used is based on, or off of, the works of Josephus and his chronological dating which I have already shown in over abundance cannot be trusted.

So like I said you really have nothing but Josephus.
I highlighted the point you seem to be missing.
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Old 07-07-2018, 04:16 PM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
5,592 posts, read 2,766,196 times
Reputation: 2844
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post

This retrogradation of a planet is exactly what the magi seen when the planet/star they followed stopped above Bethlehem.

This star stopped only over Bethlehem? Over one particular house? For how long, given that the whole sky of stars is moving at the rate of rotation of the earth? How would the Magi have determined which town it had stopped over, let alone which house?
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Old 07-07-2018, 05:17 PM
Status: "Nozzeated - monumentally." (set 5 hours ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
24,974 posts, read 12,924,834 times
Reputation: 11424
Quote:
Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
This star stopped only over Bethlehem? Over one particular house? For how long, given that the whole sky of stars is moving at the rate of rotation of the earth? How would the Magi have determined which town it had stopped over, let alone which house?
Magic.

Magi is short for Magic.

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Old 07-07-2018, 06:33 PM
 
8,671 posts, read 2,978,418 times
Reputation: 408
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Hi guy, unless you can show me how 60+ days can be squeezed into 29 days I will stick with my assessment of cannot possibly be.

If the math don't add up it don't add up.

It was math that made me see all the animals on the planet could not possibly fit into a boat, thus the flood story is not a historical event. Hopefully math here will help you see "cannot possibly be" is a true statement.
Full grown animals or cute adorable little newborns? Eggs, etc.
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Old 07-07-2018, 07:23 PM
 
8,671 posts, read 2,978,418 times
Reputation: 408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
And Strabo, and Tacitus, and Cassius Dio, and Velleius. What part of Josephus corroborated by Strabo, Tacitus, Cassius Dio and Velleius do you NOT understand?

Just for the Legates we have (once again):

Titius: Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 16.270-77 to 81; Strabo 16.1.28.

Saturninus: Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 16.277-81, 16.344, 17.6-7, 17.24, 17.57, Jewish War 1.577.

Varus: Josephus, Jewish War 1.617-39 and 2.66-80 , Jewish Antiquities 17.89-133, 17.221-23, 17.250-98; Velleius 2.117.2 (who was alive at the time); Tacitus, Historiae 5.9.2.

For the date of the consulship of Quirinius, try Dio Cassius 54.28.2 and Tacitus Annals 3.48.

You did not provide overwhelming evidence Josephus can not be trusted, you picked a few examples while ignoring 1) the many dates where he is corroborated, and 2) how Josephus used eyewitness accounts, and 3) how the three different dating methods account for the 1 year difference. A one year difference that gets you nowhere near 6 AD.

We also have the Roman laws, the Roman military structure, what the NT actually says, the eclipse of 5 BC (that you ignored). If I was to provide a reference to all of the evidence I have, I would have written a book. But I have no need, there are already books out there with this information for those willing to research.

It is not just me who has worked this out, there are historians who have been there before me. Historians your Christian sites you used for 'research' need to ignore.
Pardon the interjection.

I have a question: Is there any record of Augustus calling for a census?
If So,
Where might a person find such records to further discuss the matters of ordinate seasons.
If Not,
I venture all records were destroyed.
And i believe this would be something essential to Faith.

It just seems to me that according to the Torah,
A Messiah would never be marked..
And that is even more of a wonderous power than any historian could provide. Imagine he was not yet born during the census, or even already born and was hidden away while the parents attended.

Such linear derision that has been debated here is interestingly sharp.
Yet I doubt any amount of sharpening clay mingled iron will do any good. Even if there was a census. That is not to be conflated with a genealogy account. Those are given to ensure the readers that every Hebrew meticulously recorded their familial ties. Each tribe carries the names of their forbearers without a single interuption.
For the greco/Roman world this was impossible to comprehend. Especially since they were of edom and desired to regain possesion of a lost inheritence.
Now where is the reasonable assumption that Matthew and [Luke (ya,ir] as I like to call him, Is giving more than any consultory historian could offer at that time or even now?
As you said yourself.
Historians can be biased, like judges and prophets are subseptable to bribes!.





I do believe the topic is nativity!.
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Old 07-07-2018, 08:14 PM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
5,592 posts, read 2,766,196 times
Reputation: 2844
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Hi guy, unless you can show me how 60+ days can be squeezed into 29 days I will stick with my assessment of cannot possibly be.

If the math don't add up it don't add up.

It was math that made me see all the animals on the planet could not possibly fit into a boat, thus the flood story is not a historical event. Hopefully math here will help you see "cannot possibly be" is a true statement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
I don't doubt that LT as some countries have canonized Josephus as part of their bible. So you see atheist and Christians alike have made Josephus their bible.

However all I am saying about Josephus is that he must be read with a critical eye.
I'm well aware of that.

Josephus, wrote about Masada and what was done and said and by whom and where. Yet he was nowhere near Masada at the time of the event. There simply weren't enough survivors for him to have interviewed either. So how did he know what was being said and done? He didn't - he inserted it. Petty much in the same way that the gospel writers inserted what Jesus and others supposedly said and did, I suppose.
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