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Not quite. That's comparing apples to oranges. You didn't create your dog. You are merely taking care of him/her. If you had created him, and created the rest of the universe, you would be able to define what good and bad behavior is. But you didn't. You merely exist as a creature within the world.
Except that this isn't about "might makes right". This is about Creator defining.
And around and around we go. Honestly? Whether or not you believe the Creator is able to define morality is irrelevant because the fact is, NEITHER CAN YOU. So whatever form of morality you come up with, it's merely begging the question. I'm asking for you to define WHY we must believe YOUR mode of morality over any other form?
STILL waiting.
I can't think of a reason why we must believe my mode of morality over any other form. I can think of reasons why it'd be good too, but I can't think of reasons why we must, but regardless of that...I still see no reason why creating the universe necessitates that you design what good and bad behavior is. A designer of the universe could have determined what good and behavior is, or not. It could have left that open to the interpretation of the inhabitants. I don't know why anyone would believe that, if a god of our universe exists, it didn't just leave right and wrong open to the interpretation of the inhabitants.
No. I don't claim to be able to determine what is and is not moral. I'm not that arrogant. Have you paid attention at all to what I've said?
Yes, you do. You claim it comes from the Bible, and your God. Therefore, you are claiming you KNOW what is correct. Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but that is clearly saying you can determine what is and is not moral. You are just saying, "I can't determine it, but I KNOW who can!". You are claiming that your opinion of morality is correct, because that is all it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
Hallelujah! You just admitted it! You have no proof that what you have is the correct standard!
Your argument amounts to "it works". I have yet to see anyone explain why "it works" is the correct standard other than personal preference.
STILL waiting....
Where did I say I had proof? Do I think it is the correct version? Absolutely! Why would you think it isn't? Do you believe treating people with respect is bad? Do you believe that harming others is good? That is the only way you would disagree with it. I would assume you don't believe those things, right?
You are stuck on whether we have proof of something being the correct one, but the fact is, no one has proof. We can ONLY go based off of what works. The only thing that works is treating people with respect and not harming others. Go ahead and argue against it though, it will just show people your true colors.
You STILL haven't answered the question of how you can determine what is morality and what isn't. You can claim society can determine it, but your argument lacks. What about another society deciding otherwise?
You mean if society determines that slavery is wrong, that women are equal to men, that killing people for robbery is not moral? Yes moral does change otherwise we would still have slavery, the right to capture women for sexual pleasure, and the stoning of women who were raped. Your society decides that executing people convicted of murder is right and mine says it is not. How is that different than those who believe in the Bible as being the literal word of God being different than those who believe that the Bible is a spiritual guide? Some churches accept same sex marriage and others view it as an abomination for example and therefore different ideas of morality on that issue.
You have never been able to prove that morals laid down by a god or gods has been universal in either space or time so why should I have to prove that morals in society have to be when it is a good thing that they are not.
Morality comes from a multitude of factors, our parents, what is within ourselves, from our societies, from philosophers and religious leaders, experience and history. . It comes from deep within us, evolutionary traits that gave early societies an advantage in survival with some conflicts against evolutionary traits that provided certain individuals advantages over other members in their own society. That I believe that morals come from a more complicated worldview than "God did it" puts me at a disadvantage in this discussion of course but the "God does it" does not explain the changes in morality over time, why it is mostly the same but somewhat different over space and how morality in things that your God left to us came about.
I was listening to comedian Pete Holmes on NPR today. He grew up an evangelical Christian who is now practicing a more liberal form of the faith. He says that most of his friends are atheists now. Here is the link to the interview, and below that I've copied something that he learned from his atheist friends.
What do you think? Personally, I think it was beautifully stated.
Part of the process was seeing the rich and true morality of my atheist friends. ... I went from a lot of Christian friends to almost exclusively atheist friends. And I remember — this isn't that crazy of a story, but it was huge to me — I was on the road with a couple of comedians, one of them was T.J., and they were both atheists and we're in this hotel and it had one of those mini-marts ... but they're always unattended. And just said to them, "No one's here. If there's no God, why don't ... I just take these M&Ms?"
And T.J. was like, "Because we're doing it for one another. It's not to please some god somewhere else who's mad when you steal M&Ms; you're doing it so the woman who is not at the counter doesn't get fired when they count the M&Ms and count the cash."
I started to see that you didn't need a fear model to be beautifully compassionate and kind to one another.
he's right, I have been saying since '79 ...
"I don't believe in your god, I do it because all we have is each other."
I can't think of a reason why we must believe my mode of morality over any other form. I can think of reasons why it'd be good too, but I can't think of reasons why we must, but regardless of that...I still see no reason why creating the universe necessitates that you design what good and bad behavior is. A designer of the universe could have determined what good and behavior is, or not. It could have left that open to the interpretation of the inhabitants. I don't know why anyone would believe that, if a god of our universe exists, it didn't just leave right and wrong open to the interpretation of the inhabitants.
Congratulations. To you, everything is good, everything is bad. Nothing can be known for sure.
Congratulations. To you, everything is good, everything is bad. Nothing can be known for sure.
I believe some things are good and other things are bad. I actually think we can measure how good or bad things should be described as being by how much pleasure or suffering they produce...but just being an authority does not let me decide that is morally correct. I have to argue with other people to convince them I'm right. If I do not convince them, they have no reason to believe I'm correct, regardless of if I'm an authority who created the universe or not.
I think we should base our definitions of right and wrong off pleasure and suffering because we have no other way of distinguish right from wrong besides weighing how much suffering it causes against how much positive emotion it causes.
My parents. I was taught growing up to be a good person. I was taught to treat others like I wanted to be treated, to treat people as equals, to be nice, to help those in need.... etc etc. I think you get the point.
And before you ask, no, my parents were not religious. I grew up in a household where we didn't go to church or say the blessing or anything like that. On Sunday's, I usually went fishing with my dad (he loved having a daughter who liked to fish!), or watched NFL football (he loved that too!), or sat on the porch and looked out into the field behind our house and watched the deer while drinking coffee, or something similar to those things.
Also, I learned from experience as well. I learned what things made me feel crummy and what things made me feel good. I learned that I liked making people happy and hated making them sad. I learned that I did not like to get in trouble or to cause problems. I learned a lot of things about morality and ethics without needing your God to do so.
Where did your parents get it from, and their parents before them? What made you feel crummy when you did bad stuff was your conscience, a strong sign that you have a creator, of some sort.
I suppose that an atheist's morality comes from these two things:
1. Super-Ego
2. Conscience
A fundamentalist would call these the "Father" and the "Holy Spirit."
These kind of questions can be turned right back to the fundamentalist. Where does your own morality come from? A book? I would say that the book you worship was inspired by the Super-Ego and by the Conscience.
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