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What causes a dog to get along with another smaller pet animal in the household? In a natural environment he would be the predator and the smaller pet would be his prey.
It isn't God. It's the influence of his tribe. His family. It's also known by the initials CYA. The dog knows when he need to C his own A, if he wants to get along with the household.
Maybe that's because the atheist acts for pure reasons. While the fundamentalist acts out of fear of punishment. It sounds like many fundamentalists have a pure desire to rape, pillage, kill, steal, etc. But the only thing holding them back is fear.
No. I don't claim to be able to determine what is and is not moral. I'm not that arrogant. Have you paid attention at all to what I've said?
Hallelujah! You just admitted it! You have no proof that what you have is the correct standard!
Your argument amounts to "it works". I have yet to see anyone explain why "it works" is the correct standard other than personal preference.
STILL waiting....
That's because you have been busy cultivating obedience rather than morality. You cannot act as a moral agent because you are not free to. I suspect morality will come down to a pathway in the brain that stops most people from anti social behavior. at present I think morality is evolving.
You STILL haven't answered the question of how you can determine what is morality and what isn't. You can claim society can determine it, but your argument lacks. What about another society deciding otherwise?
Quote:
Originally Posted by badlander
You mean if society determines that slavery is wrong, that women are equal to men, that killing people for robbery is not moral? Yes moral does change otherwise we would still have slavery, the right to capture women for sexual pleasure, and the stoning of women who were raped. Your society decides that executing people convicted of murder is right and mine says it is not. How is that different than those who believe in the Bible as being the literal word of God being different than those who believe that the Bible is a spiritual guide? Some churches accept same sex marriage and others view it as an abomination for example and therefore different ideas of morality on that issue.
You have never been able to prove that morals laid down by a god or gods has been universal in either space or time so why should I have to prove that morals in society have to be when it is a good thing that they are not.
Morality comes from a multitude of factors, our parents, what is within ourselves, from our societies, from philosophers and religious leaders, experience and history. . It comes from deep within us, evolutionary traits that gave early societies an advantage in survival with some conflicts against evolutionary traits that provided certain individuals advantages over other members in their own society. That I believe that morals come from a more complicated worldview than "God did it" puts me at a disadvantage in this discussion of course but the "God does it" does not explain the changes in morality over time, why it is mostly the same but somewhat different over space and how morality in things that your God left to us came about.
As far as we are doing it for one another, it is for the same reason that I do not like seeing others doing what I consider wrong to others, whether it be harming them personally or what I view as crimes against everyone in destroying historical artifacts or natural beauties removing the possibly for enjoyment for all time.
So if it not morals but only opinions then my opinion is that we should treat others with care and respect and do no harm to others or allow others to harm other people. My opinion is that we must treat animals with respect as well, whether they are our pets, animals raised for food or those in the wild. My opinion is that we must treat the environment with respect as well , preserving and conserving it at the same time as we are using it for our own needs. Use but not abuse.
I deep down do not really care if it is called my morals or my opinion or you can even call it my dog poop for all it matters, doing it for one another, respect and doing no harm are what guides me in my life. If any wish to call that a lack of morals and only a personal opinion so be it.
You mean if society determines that slavery is wrong, that women are equal to men, that killing people for robbery is not moral? Yes moral does change otherwise we would still have slavery, the right to capture women for sexual pleasure, and the stoning of women who were raped. Your society decides that executing people convicted of murder is right and mine says it is not. How is that different than those who believe in the Bible as being the literal word of God being different than those who believe that the Bible is a spiritual guide? Some churches accept same sex marriage and others view it as an abomination for example and therefore different ideas of morality on that issue.
Even almost all of those who believe that take pains to 'reinterpret' all those inconvenient Bible parts that they know are moral travesties, including the ones you reference. Thereby, they concede that they do not need any sort of divine direction to determine what is moral.
Some people just believe in belief and are convinced that people cannot be generally decent without being commanded to be. And believing this requires ignoring the abundant real-world examples to the contrary that I have repeatedly put forth.
Of course, some people specialize in obtusely pretending not to see things of which it is obvious that they are fully aware.
Even almost all of those who believe that take pains to 'reinterpret' all those inconvenient Bible parts that they know are moral travesties, including the ones you reference. Thereby, they concede that they do not need any sort of divine direction to determine what is moral.
Some people just believe in belief and are convinced that people cannot be generally decent without being commanded to be. And believing this requires ignoring the abundant real-world examples to the contrary that I have repeatedly put forth.
And those people believe that way, because that is all that keeps them in line. Which is quite frightening if you think about it.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unsettomati
Of course, some people specialize in obtusely pretending not to see things of which it is obvious that they are fully aware.
Even almost all of those who believe that take pains to 'reinterpret' all those inconvenient Bible parts that they know are moral travesties, including the ones you reference. Thereby, they concede that they do not need any sort of divine direction to determine what is moral.
Some people just believe in belief and are convinced that people cannot be generally decent without being commanded to be. And believing this requires ignoring the abundant real-world examples to the contrary that I have repeatedly put forth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImissThe90's
And those people believe that way, because that is all that keeps them in line. Which is quite frightening if you think about it.....
Really, I don't think this is the case.
Oh, the fundamentalist theology as clearly articulated by numerous resident fundies holds to exactly that. They claim that, but for the deity saying HEY, DON'T STEAL OR RAPE OF KILL OR I'LL KICK FOR ASS FOR ALL ETERNITY! that the bulk of us worthless humans would run around stealing and raping and killing. And 'worthless humans' really does describe the fundamentalist view of our species. Over and over, we're all said to be just a bunch of vile sinners, only worthy of life because some benevolent deity is willing to forgive us for being such pieces of garbage. It really is a horrofic world-view, the endless prattling on and on about how bad we all are.
But in most cases I don't think religion really keeps people in line. Those people are subject to the same social and evolutionary pressures as everyone and like most people they have empathy (even though many of them try their Biblical best not to) or at the least just try and get along and go with the flow. Fundamentalism may have wrung every last drop of self-respect from them to the point that they grovel in prayer to be 'saved' from their own wretchedness, but that just speaks to the mental abuse that has been heaped upon them (and they are complicit in this abuse-heaping) by the fundamentalist structure to which they adhere.
I have as yet to be told by anyone how the atheist that "does it for one another" is any more moral in their worldview than the guy that rapes and pillages. What determines that judgement?
Reality.
If morality is just Might Makes Right, than no, only the Mightiest is the only Moral One, be it jealous or wrathful or idiotic (as I many have said since the beginning of the priest's money/alimentation collecting activities). But then, what determines the judgement that only Might Makes Right? (You and your preferences, of course).
If morality is "what is right according to right wishes" than such wishes and actions only need to align with reality. (You and your preferences would be mostly null and void, but still integral if they properly aligned with what is true). So basically the same thing that "determines that judgment" for lava boiling you if you get within a few feet of it, or the judgment of the Sun giving you skin cancer if you don't heed the scientists (those who know because of proper study).
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