Why would God expect us to believe without evidence? (agnostic, Muslim, baptize)

[Rafius]

Originally Posted by Amaznjohn

That's an interesting experience. If someone were to prove to you that the dream wasn't from the God you believe in, would you quit believing in that God?

Originally Posted by Mr5150

Nope. Good luck proving such a thing. There is scientific basis to explain that experience. Plus I've had too many other "experiences" that tie into God. And yes, I am aware of other spiritual entities.

Originally Posted by Mr5150

I can see your mind is made up. My guess is if God slaped you in the back of the head you would dismiss the experience searching for the board that fell out of a plane.

Anyone else see it?

[GldnRule]

Originally Posted by wallflash

I wanted to write tangible evidence, but it wouldnt fit.

There seems to be some derision here regarding not believing unless evidence is provided for God, which is silly if you think about it. What other things in life do you believe in without evidence?

And by tangible I dont mean subjective feelings. The flowers are beautiful, the mountains are beautiful, my child loves me, and so on. Real stuff, even if we cant see it physically. We cant see gravity, but we can see its effects every single time we put it to the test. Not some, not all, every time.

Believers often say, God wants you to have faith. But believing by faith is merely believing without evidence, so we circle back to my question. Why are we expected to believe without evidence?

This all presupposes a sort of God that cares whether we believe in it . For a deist or pantheist type of god, the question would be moot. Such a God did what it did, and doesnt care if you know it did what it did, or whether you believe in it. But what of the God who wants, expects, and even in some cases demands that you believe in it? Why the insistence upon belief without proof?

Dont say " God wants us to have faith", because again, you simply answer my question of why God wants us to believe without evidence by responding "because God wants us to believe without evidence".

The Religious have their theological writings, personal experiences and testimony, and pastors that explain all this.
This has been related to you many times.
Telling them what not to say is just rude and antagonistic.
It may not mean anything to you...but it does to them. And they are the vast majority...they have a vast, strong, solid consensus.
I know it bothers you that they rule the world, and crush the concept you endorse in The Arena of World Merit and Influence...but you are just gonna have to learn to cope.
You may as well demand..."Prove, with objective evidence, why people find music to be emotionally moving. It is really only subjectively pleasantly arranged sounds. And don't just say...**It sounds so beautiful**...provide evidence."
And God Belief is gaining in this world...you are gettin' trounced, but still keep coming back for more of a whoopin'!

[Timray]

Originally Posted by Mr5150

I can see your mind is made up. My guess is if God slaped you in the back of the head you would dismiss the experience searching for the board that fell out of a plane.

Is God's Slap (imagine that!!) meant to be different from any other slap you might ever receive? IF Yes, then Any "Divinely Inspired Slap" would have the Automatic effect (if that was the intention from the Get-Go), of "inspiring" Belief (in painful fashion unfortunately) in the "intended target". There can be no other outcome other than immediate belief. God doesn't have to slap someone Twice to succeed; even if the individual in question is a (Militant Atheist)

[Timray]

Originally Posted by Rafius

Care to share some? But as said above, it must be verifiable. Yeah, I know the planet is awesome and kittens are cute ...but that not verifiable evidence for a god.

Playing Devil's Advocate here (regarding the bold)...

Awesome planets don't come into existence on their own, nor do cute kittens! . Only a God could have done it.

From a Christian's perspective only a God could produce such awesomeness and cuteness: to them, all the awesomeness and cuteness they see (regarding the planet and kitten), is all the "verifiable" evidence they need to conclude that there is a God.

[Rafius]

Originally Posted by Timray

Playing Devil's Advocate here (regarding the bold)...

Awesome planets don't come into existence on their own, nor do cute kittens! . Only a God could have done it.

From a Christian's perspective only a God could produce such awesomeness and cuteness: to them, all the awesomeness and cuteness they see (regarding the planet and kitten), is all the "verifiable" evidence they need to conclude that there is a God.

Yes sure. There is evidence and there is verifiable evidence. The Bible is 'evidence' for the existence of gods and miracles but it is not verifiable and non-verifiable evidence, such as that produced by Christian, is about as much use as a one-legged man in an arse-kicking contest.

[Arach Angle]

believing in what we call a "god" and claiming that the bible has many if god's traits completely wrong are not mutually exclusive. The word "god" has a ton of baggage, its very hard on my back carrying it around, so i just put it down and move on.

also, applying human emotions to rituals is ok so long as they are not forced on people that do not have such emotions in over abundance. for example, "praising", if there is a god it needs your praise about as much as I do from my children. Do I like a "hug" from my 19yr old, sure I do, but its not mandatory. Can he curse me? If he does the first thing I do is review the events that lead up to this cursing ... if I am at fault, it tell him such. If not ... out the door he goes. This aint rocket science.

[Timray]

Originally Posted by Rafius

Yes sure. There is evidence and there is verifiable evidence. The Bible is 'evidence' for the existence of gods and miracles but it is not verifiable and non-verifiable evidence, such as that produced by Christian, is about as much use as a one-legged man in an arse-kicking contest.

Point taken.

On a personal level, I'm all for Verifiable Evidence. If Extraordinary claims are made (to me), I will require Extraordinary Verifiable Evidence for said claims (assuming the intent is to make me believe the claims in question); anything short of that and I'll doubt the validity of the claims being made.

Just out of curiosity, how do you think a one-armed man would fare in the "arse-kicking" contest you mentioned above? Remember He's on two legs.

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by wallflash

Im sorry, but answers such as " I could tell you, but you wouldnt believe me", or " I know the answer, but I just dont want to bother telling you", do not mean anything. Im not being mean, but either you can provide an answer or you cannot. Claiming you can but " Im not going to for Reason X" is a cop out.

You are not being mean, thank you, tho, for saying that.
No, it is not a 'cop out', my forum friend.
The answers to most of man's questions are written in all the Scriptures of every culture,
yet,
men continue to be bewildered...until a person takes this inner journey to wisdom...
it just can not be 'taught'.

Sure, I know the reason for all existence...and have cried with humility and joy that I
have been given this revelation...what good does it do to tell anyone! (And I have a few times...)
It is written in the Sikh poetry of Kabir and Hafiz...the Hindu poetry of Tulsidas and Mirabai...
the Judaic words of David in Psalm 139...
the Christian words of Meister Eckhart and others;
does it change men?
No...but it may inspire men to go inside and seek the unchangeable love, wisdom, knowledge and
contentment that is inside each of us, tho.

How does one teach another to see eternity in a flower, infinity in an hour...or
the sound of one hand clapping?

Each has to walk that Path to the answers...

[Timray]

Originally Posted by Rafius

Anyone else see it?

Crystal Clear.

[maat55]

Originally Posted by ipaper

To test your faith.

To be more exact, it would be to test ones gullibility. It is not rational to believe in irrational things. So, explain how a higher being would rationalize this.