Why would God expect us to believe without evidence? (lukewarm, New Testament, atheist)

[GldnRule]

Originally Posted by Shirina

I would at least acknowledge that whatever mysticism I felt was unidentified. Was it wonderful? Sure. Did it fill me with hope? Yep. Was it unlike anything I had ever experienced? You bet.

But I still wouldn't know what it was, and if there is a higher power at work, I would admit that it's just that: a higher power.

Because all I actually did, at least judging from what I read in your post, was *feel* something. Jesus didn't descend out of the clouds complete with beard, long hair, white skin, robe, and sandals to shake my hand and say, "Helloeth. I am-eth Jesus. Lo, perhapseth you have heardeth of me?"

I would be astonished and mesmerized by what you have described -- and yet my mind would still be clear enough to realize that the only reason I'm so eager to spoil the experience by wrapping the whole thing up within the confines of Christianity is because I happen to be in a Christian country.

What's more, I would know that religion doesn't own the idea of life after death. I don't have to believe in a god who acts like a cosmic door man who bounces good people out of the Heaven Club while letting in despicable people simply because they believed.

In fact, tossing away religion gives me even greater hope, knowing that the afterlife won't be spent in eternal servitude living on my knees; I could hope that my Heaven will be exactly that: *my* Heaven, not a prefabricated one-size-fits-all Heaven mandated by the descriptions in an ancient holy book.

I could then say that, perhaps there *is* a higher power after all -- but one that is *truly* good, loving, compassionate, and fair rather than a Bronze Age tribal deity that sent bears to tear apart 42 children for merely calling some prophet "old bald-head."

That would inspire me far more than any of the stuff invented by these ancient, illiterate, and superstitious Bedouins. What's more, I would know that all my loved ones really *will* be in my Heaven. No one is going to be roasting on a spit in hell because they weren't convinced to join the right religion before the timer hit zero and a loud, obnoxious buzz echoed through eternity announcing another poor sod who wasn't able to leave his brain with the coat check girl in the alcoves of spirituality.

Oh, man! Your posts just keep getting better and better.
You are on a roll the last couple weeks Shirina. "Roasting on a spit in hell"...and Jesus showing up...God as the bouncer at Heaven Club! You are like a female version of Don Rickles doing a commentary on Religion.
Thanx. It adds so much to this board.

[littlewitness]

Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER

No -no more than I ask Santa why I didn't receive any presents this Christmas. But I know some people who asked God (in prayer) for explanations repeatedly and got no answer.

They related this in their deconversion stories.

Now tell me "Oh -they were never Real Christians".

So you did ask God! Well I know many people who ask God in prayer for explanations repeatedly, and God usually tells them, "No!"

[littlewitness]

Originally Posted by Shirina

I have once, back when I kinda-sorta believed ... or at least perhaps *wanted* to believe.

I probably would have learned more if I had asked my cat.

Did God answer you?

[Rafius]

Originally Posted by maat55

Tell me, did Jesus provide cell phones, tv's, cars, air conditioners, heart transplants, space stations etc..? You look foolish barking up this tree.

Ah...but you see maat. He gave those that did, the knowledge, ability and experience to do so!

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Some of the happiest people on the planet are the ones with the least amount of material possessions or modern day technology.

So when are you going to sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor...like your Jesus told you to.

Originally Posted by badlander

The big question for you Jeff is when you get married and have children are you going to be willing to use the latest medical knowledge to keep them healthy when they get seriously I'll or are you going to rely entirely on prayer and the medical technologies that are referred to in the Bible? Or are you going to use modern medicine and pray? When one has a loved one seriously I'll or injured most of us trust the doctor ..

So will he. Hypocrite that he is.

Originally Posted by Call

I am Jewish, which doesn't necessarily tell you very much.

So when I said that you were a follower of Yahweh, was I right or wrong.

I think you may have hinted or stated outright that you are an atheist.

Man and boy. Anti theist too.

Are you now telling me that that makes you an expert on what Jews believe?

Not at all. Can you point out where I said I was.

Originally Posted by maat55

Trust me, when I need serious healthcare I will seek a doctor and not a mythical God. And, I'd bet my house you will too.

I'd bet my life that he will

Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER

That's not the point, old son. The point is, when you get sick, do you pray o be healed rather than go to get proper always getting it wrong medical treatment?

Need you ask old horse??

You have only Faith. And Faith in spite of evidence and logic is the worst reason for believing anything that I can think of.

When you have to try to make Faith a good reason for belief, it is a confession that there isn't a good reason to believe.
--Transponder

Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER

No -no more than I ask Santa why I didn't receive any presents this Christmas.

Aaaaaahahahahahaha! Now THAT I'm going to steal.

[Shirina]

Originally Posted by GldnRule

Oh, man! Your posts just keep getting better and better.
You are on a roll the last couple weeks Shirina. "Roasting on a spit in hell"...and Jesus showing up...God as the bouncer at Heaven Club! You are like a female version of Don Rickles doing a commentary on Religion.
Thanx. It adds so much to this board.

Why thank you.

*takes a sweeping bow*

[Shirina]

Originally Posted by littlewitness

Did God answer you?

Nope, and that's the point.

I find it awefully strange that, should "God" exist, he seems to pick and choose who he reveals himself to -- as if some people are just SOL or merely being used as fodder in order to impact someone else's life (the way Job's original family was used as fodder to settle God's stupid bet with Satan).

[Matadora]

Originally Posted by Shirina

Why thank you.

*takes a sweeping bow*

[Call]

Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER

Raffs did not claim expertise but just references led him (and me) to assume you were Jewish - as you agreed. I might also observe that he was trying to be polite.

For you to accuse him of claiming to be an expert is absurd. Now I suggest you drop it as I don't want to rub your face in it.

Obviously I'm Jewish. Rafius tried to tell me what i believe. I don't think that he was trying to be polite, but, if so, he failed, perhaps only due to his ignorance of Judaism.

Mind your own business, and rub your own face as often as you like.

[Arach Angle]

Originally Posted by Shirina

I would at least acknowledge that whatever mysticism I felt was unidentified. Was it wonderful? Sure. Did it fill me with hope? Yep. Was it unlike anything I had ever experienced? You bet.

But I still wouldn't know what it was, and if there is a higher power at work, I would admit that it's just that: a higher power.

Because all I actually did, at least judging from what I read in your post, was *feel* something. Jesus didn't descend out of the clouds complete with beard, long hair, white skin, robe, and sandals to shake my hand and say, "Helloeth. I am-eth Jesus. Lo, perhapseth you have heardeth of me?"

I would be astonished and mesmerized by what you have described -- and yet my mind would still be clear enough to realize that the only reason I'm so eager to spoil the experience by wrapping the whole thing up within the confines of Christianity is because I happen to be in a Christian country.

What's more, I would know that religion doesn't own the idea of life after death. I don't have to believe in a god who acts like a cosmic door man who bounces good people out of the Heaven Club while letting in despicable people simply because they believed.

In fact, tossing away religion gives me even greater hope, knowing that the afterlife won't be spent in eternal servitude living on my knees; I could hope that my Heaven will be exactly that: *my* Heaven, not a prefabricated one-size-fits-all Heaven mandated by the descriptions in an ancient holy book.

I could then say that, perhaps there *is* a higher power after all -- but one that is *truly* good, loving, compassionate, and fair rather than a Bronze Age tribal deity that sent bears to tear apart 42 children for merely calling some prophet "old bald-head."

That would inspire me far more than any of the stuff invented by these ancient, illiterate, and superstitious Bedouins. What's more, I would know that all my loved ones really *will* be in my Heaven. No one is going to be roasting on a spit in hell because they weren't convinced to join the right religion before the timer hit zero and a loud, obnoxious buzz echoed through eternity announcing another poor sod who wasn't able to leave his brain with the coat check girl in the alcoves of spirituality.

yup,

with the spiritual awakening one of the first thoughts is 'wow, I didn't realize how small religion is."

[Arach Angle]

Originally Posted by GldnRule

No OmniBeings, Hocus-pocus, etc, involved.
Just emperical evidence based upon observations of how The Universe works.
I'm not saying the definition of the word/term title "G-O-D" that is a Religious Deity type being is "wrong", per se...I fully acknowledge that as one of the meanings of the word/term title.
Based upon observations to this point...those perceptions of "GOD" are metaphorical representations of GOD or that which comprises GOD, and do not actually exist in Reality.

Based upon observations, The Universe possesses attributes whereby it aligns with a known, expert provided definition of "G-O-D" as Something Of Supreme Value. The Universe is of supreme value in a way nothing else is. Eliminate The Universe and there is nothing left whatsoever. It is unique in this respect....and that is demonstrative of its objective Supreme Value, over and above anything or group of things less than the total that is only subjectively Of Supreme Value.
Also, The Universe has the attributes that are represented by the metaphorical Deities of Religion & Mythology...All Present, All Powerful, etc.
Thus, my determination based upon observations that it warrants the title "GOD".

Claimed emotional headtrips about "baggage" the word/term title carries is not my problem. I suggest to those so afflicted to summon the character required to bolster their emotional fortitude so as to be able to cope.

yes, that's what I thought. Thank you for telling me again.

I don't have that emotional response either. I have a "normal-crazy" experience with my family. And it turns out that the main players here at cd are fighting a "word". I am not sure how to handle that.

how do we overcome the visceral reaction to the word "god'? How do we present an reasonable alternative to omni dude thats offers a real explanation yet prevents the visceral denial of a reasonable counterclaim because of the primal fear of the word "god"?

we are not really fighting logic and reason here. we can't be. We are debating with emotional, almost primitive emotional responses, to a word.

we are also debating with people that have "god" as the endpoint so they do not weight observations properly. They are at "a god" when the first observation is discussed. They deny or confirm observation based on where they are mentally and not where the line of logic leads.

The worst of the bunch, are the ones that deny anything that religious can use. weather it true or not is irrelevant. Or the ones that turn the first sentence into 'nothing can change my belief."

being reasonable hasn't worked. Slamming them doesn't work. teaching doesn't work. They won't address the major event in their life's openly. What can we do?