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Old 05-22-2010, 08:32 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,619,096 times
Reputation: 106

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
President Bush has vetoed a bill that would have outlawed the practice of waterboarding which is a method of trying to extract information from someone by a process which is simulated drowning as well as other techniques of very forceful interrogation. Most of this nation is religious as we all know and there are some very important ethical and moral issues involved so I'm wondering what people think about this. There are a number of things to consider. In an extreme situation one could imagine a scenario in which a suspect is believed to have knowledge about an immediate attack which could kill thousands of people. In order to protect our own society it could be said that in this very rare instance that extreme measures might be appropriate. On the other hand it appears that our military has been using some very brutal techniques as a matter of routine and have also destroyed videos of many of these interrogations. Personally I feel that when we resort to the torture of individuals and it becomes a commonplace occurrence and it's likely that completely innocent people are being tortured that we're no better than our enemies. What do you think?
As with many terms, the word 'torture' tends to be subjective. Should water boarding fall into the category of torture? There's certainly ample debate over what exactly constitutes torture. That being the case, why should anyone accept your premise that the United States engages in torture?

Is sleep deprivation torture?

Denial of three meals a day?

If a captured terrorist is locked in solitary confinement and forced to listen to blaring music for 24 hours a day seven days a week?

IMO the way to bring a speedy end to any war is to destroy the enemies will to resist. Those charged with the conduct of war bear a very grave and sobering responsibility.

"It is easier to criticize a commander than it is to command an army." -Gen. John B. Gordon
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Old 05-23-2010, 02:16 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,568 posts, read 16,187,389 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by fiveredapples
Quote:
I feel like I'm arguing with an infant.
What is infantile is implying that someone is a simpleton simply because he disagrees with you.
I could argue that you are ignorant of the fact that you don't see the difference between torture and using violence.
So let me explain the difference ( I'll even use simple words so even a child can understand it): torture is always an act of violence (harmful), but not every act of violence is torture.
This is why I've stated that torture = rape and rape = torture.

Quote:
I gave a commonsense argument for why waterboarding isn't morally wrong, and you've now accused me of supporting The Inquisition. The Inquisition!!!
Are you now denying that the Inquisition finds torture perfectly acceptable? Did not the Inquisition use torture for (what they believed) the greater good?
You keep insisting that torture is not evil, which is the same as saying that in some cases rape is completely normal and acceptable.

Quote:
Wow. I'm waiting for you to call me a racist.
Only if you believe that slavery, like torture, is not an act of evil.
Or that God had empowered Anglo-Saxons to enslave Africans as a connection between the highest and lowest races of men, "revealing influences which may be, and will be, most benevolent for the ultimate good of the master and the slave."


Originally Posted by tigetmax24
Quote:
Is sleep deprivation torture?

Denial of three meals a day?
Yes.

Quote:
"It is easier to criticize a commander than it is to command an army." -Gen. John B. Gordon
Let me counter quote:
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." -Steven Weinberg, quoted in The New York Times, April 20, 1999
I consider patriotism (including fascism) a pseudo-religion.
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Old 05-23-2010, 09:04 AM
 
50 posts, read 50,182 times
Reputation: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D
What is infantile is implying that someone is a simpleton simply because he disagrees with you.
What's infantile is that you're basically plugging your ears and refusing to listen to what I'm saying. Here's my claim: waterboarding isn't morally wrong. Do you see the word "torture" there anywhere? Answer: No. If you want to argue that waterboarding is torture, then argue it. Otherwise, stop wasting my time with your rhetorical ploy of insisting that it is.

Quote:
I could argue that you are ignorant of the fact that you don't see the difference between torture and using violence.
I haven't spoken about torture. I've been explaining why we don't need to talk about it in this debate. But who's reading what I write, anyway, right?

Quote:
So let me explain the difference ( I'll even use simple words so even a child can understand it): torture is always an act of violence (harmful), but not every act of violence is torture.
Without also explaining what you mean by "an act of violence", you really haven't explained anything. Grade: FAIL

Quote:
This is why I've stated that torture = rape and rape = torture.
You might as well have said "This is why the Universe began," because you haven't explained a thing.

Quote:
Are you now denying that the Inquisition finds torture perfectly acceptable? Did not the Inquisition use torture for (what they believed) the greater good?
LOL...I'm not denying anything about the Inquisition. I'm scratching my head wondering why you're talking about it.

Quote:
You keep insisting that torture is not evil, which is the same as saying that in some cases rape is completely normal and acceptable.
Wow. I am not saying anything -- anything at all -- about torture. Only you are. Sadly, you're even wrong about what you say about torture and rape, so, basically, you're losing an argument you're having with yourself. Impressive.

Quote:
Only if you believe that slavery, like torture, is not an act of evil. Or that God had empowered Anglo-Saxons to enslave Africans as a connection between the highest and lowest races of men, "revealing influences which may be, and will be, most benevolent for the ultimate good of the master and the slave."
Awesome. We're now talking about slavery and God. I won't quote you but you also mention patriotism. Feel free not to bring up torture, rape, the Inquisition, slavery, God, or patriotism, into a WATERBOARDING debate. Instead, try talking about...wait for it...WATERBOARDING.
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Old 05-23-2010, 11:00 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,568 posts, read 16,187,389 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by fiveredapples
Quote:
Awesome. We're now talking about slavery and God. I won't quote you but you also mention patriotism. Feel free not to bring up torture, rape, the Inquisition, slavery, God, or patriotism, into a WATERBOARDING debate. Instead, try talking about...wait for it...WATERBOARDING.
So now you are claiming that waterboarding cannot be seen as an act of torture?
Next you’ll also be saying that waterboarding also does not involve violence.
Or that the rights of the many supersede that of the individual (although this perfectly explains your American Patriot Act).

Quote:
Without also explaining what you mean by "an act of violence", you really haven't explained anything. Grade: FAIL
I've explained that there is a difference between using violence and torture.
You've only stated that waterboarding simply should not be seen as torture, which is the same as stating that rape can only be regarded as a sexual act instead of an act of violence (or a statement about power).

Quote:
Awesome. We're now talking about slavery and God. I won't quote you but you also mention patriotism.
The reason why I mentioned patriotism (or nationalism) is because like religion it encourages large groups of people to create an illusionary division between us (the good guys wearing a white hat) and them (see also my statement of the Patriot Act, there is a reason why your government called it the Patriot Act).
Religious people have the tendency to rationalise their evil deeds by claiming that it was done in the name of God therefore it was morally correct, which it simply isn't.
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Old 05-23-2010, 05:20 PM
 
50 posts, read 50,182 times
Reputation: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D
So now you are claiming that waterboarding cannot be seen as an act of torture?
Next you’ll also be saying that waterboarding also does not involve violence.
Or that the rights of the many supersede that of the individual (although this perfectly explains your American Patriot Act).
You know, your act is getting really old. I'm not claiming that waterboarding cannot be seen as an act of torture. Many people "see" it that way, and many people don't. You can't seem to appreciate that many people don't. You dismiss out of hand the view that it's not torture, and so you argue from the premise that it is. You do this without even realizing that it's a premise (re: waterboarding is torture) that you need to argue for, not simply assume as true. For someone like me (and there are a lot of us), there's no reason to simply grant you that assumption. So, if you can, argue for your premise. Otherwise, you are not really partaking in this debate -- you're just here preaching.

Stop already with the "Next you'll also be saying..." slippery slope nonsense. Learn to address my actual argument, not your imagined ones you think you can defeat.

Quote:
I've explained that there is a difference between using violence and torture.
You've only stated that waterboarding simply should not be seen as torture, which is the same as stating that rape can only be regarded as a sexual act instead of an act of violence (or a statement about power).
FAIL. FAIL. FAIL. I'm not going to address irrelevant and confused comments like this one. You're wasting my time. I have time for a waterboarding debate. I don't have time for your opinions on rape, torture, the Inquisition, patriotism, the Patriot Act, space monkeys, or why you dropped out of high school.

Quote:
The reason why I mentioned patriotism (or nationalism) is because like religion it encourages large groups of people to create an illusionary division between us (the good guys wearing a white hat) and them (see also my statement of the Patriot Act, there is a reason why your government called it the Patriot Act).
More irrelevant nonsense. Just another Liberal without the slightest ability or desire to talk about waterboarding. More strawmen and slippery slopes. More about the psychoses of religious people and patriotism.

You obfuscate. Your act is old and transparent, sir, and people with actual arguments are winning the waterboarding debate.
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Old 05-24-2010, 03:55 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,568 posts, read 16,187,389 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by fiveredapples
Quote:
You dismiss out of hand the view that it's not torture, and so you argue from the premise that it is. You do this without even realizing that it's a premise (re: waterboarding is torture) that you need to argue for, not simply assume as true.
I also dismiss out of hand that a circle has 4 corners.
You find it common sense to believe that waterboarding isn't torture, so if waterboarding isn't torture then what is it?
Just another 'non-lethal' interrogation technique where the aim of the game is to let the victim suffer as much as possible but keep her alive so she can answer some questions?
If this is not torture then what is?
Maybe you're ignorant to the fact that torture is nothing but inflicting as much pain as possible without killing the victim.

Quote:
FAIL. FAIL. FAIL. I'm not going to address irrelevant and confused comments like this one. You're wasting my time. I have time for a waterboarding debate.
So you stop participating in a discussion the moment things don't go your way?
Why enter a discussion then?

Quote:
More irrelevant nonsense. Just another Liberal without the slightest ability or desire to talk about waterboarding. More strawmen and slippery slopes. More about the psychoses of religious people and patriotism.

You obfuscate. Your act is old and transparent, sir, and people with actual arguments are winning the waterboarding debate.
You accuse me of not listening to your arguments but have you heard any of mine?
Or do you dismiss them out of hand because I happen to disagree with you?
It seems to me that you label everyone who disagrees with you a liberal and you obviously are of the opinion that liberals (even those like me who probably aren't but remotely sound like them) simply cannot be making any sense whatsoever.
I guess this generally is how people in a 2 party system discuss matters?
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Old 05-24-2010, 03:38 PM
 
50 posts, read 50,182 times
Reputation: 18
Well, well, the first honest thing you've admitted, namely that you dismiss out of hand the view that waterboarding isn't torture. And you do so without so much as an argument for why you do. If I ask a child whether a circle has four corners, he can at least tell me that it can't have four corners by defintion. But you're intellectually less able than a child in this regard, because you can't tell me why waterboarding is torture. The reason you can't, the reason why this belief of yours, which you think is so obvious, is beyond your ability to articulate is because it isn't true. You have a false belief but you believe it with all your heart -- your bleeding Liberal heart. Liberals are the worst kind of dogmatists, because they fancy themselves the good and right, when in fact they're the wrong and evil. The most evil fascists in history were Liberals/Progressives/Socialists/Marxists/Communists too, my friend, so you're in good company.

I'm arguing that waterboarding isn't morally wrong, and you go off on ridiculous tangents like the Inquisition, rape, the Patriot Act, and so on ad nauseum, and then you accuse me of not participating when things don't go my way. That's so preposterous that it's offensive. You owe everyone who has read your posts an apology for being so incompetent at thinking.

The following are different claims, each needing its own argument. If you can't see that, then you're ignorant. If you see it but refuse to acknowledge it, then you're dishonest:

1) Waterboarding is not morally wrong.
2) Waterboarding is not torture
3) Torture is not morally wrong.

Yes, this is how a two-party system generally discusses matters. Conservatives give arguments, and Liberals plug their ears and wail "we're right, we're right, we're right." The term "useful idiots" was made up to refer to Liberals for a reason, and it's obvious why.
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Old 05-24-2010, 03:44 PM
 
Location: Ohio
24,624 posts, read 19,049,191 times
Reputation: 21733
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiveredapples View Post
I'm not claiming that waterboarding cannot be seen as an act of torture. Many people "see" it that way, and many people don't. You can't seem to appreciate that many people don't.
What people believe is irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiveredapples View Post
I have time for a waterboarding debate.
There is no debate over water-boarding.

The US is a signatory to the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, and water-boarding violates the Convention to which the US is a party.

If water-boarding is not Torture, then it is either Cruel, or Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment, or Punishment.

If the US wishes to use water-boarding, then the president should abrogate the treaty to which the US is a party, instead of violating international laws.

Water-boarding also violates several other treaties to which the US is a party.

The 8th Amendment to the US Constitution states, "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."

If law enforcement agents cannot use water-boarding when interrogating witnesses or suspects, then it is because it is either a Cruel or an Unusual Punishment, and therefore water-boarding violates the Convention against Torture.
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Old 05-24-2010, 05:54 PM
 
50 posts, read 50,182 times
Reputation: 18
"What people believe is irrelevant"...followed by your beliefs. Oh the irony!

The US has violated no laws or treaties in waterboarding Khalid Sheik Mohammed, a terrorist who is not covered by the Geneva Convention, our Constittuion, or federal and state laws. You might as well say terrorists have the right to vote in this country too. But look at how -- yet again -- a Liberal refuses to explain why waterboarding is morally wrong.

I'm not here debating the legality of waterboarding, for example, Khalid Sheik Mohammed. I think you lose that argument just as surely as you're losing this one. I'm here arguing an ethical matter. If you can't appreciate the distinction, then go ask someone who does before entering a debate on the matter.

It's a little hard to entertain incompetents who can't figure out the topic or stay on it.

Good luck.

Last edited by fiveredapples; 05-24-2010 at 05:54 PM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 05-24-2010, 07:30 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,503 posts, read 4,533,359 times
Reputation: 3026
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
President Bush has vetoed a bill that would have outlawed the practice of waterboarding which is a method of trying to extract information from someone by a process which is simulated drowning as well as other techniques of very forceful interrogation. Most of this nation is religious as we all know and there are some very important ethical and moral issues involved so I'm wondering what people think about this. There are a number of things to consider. In an extreme situation one could imagine a scenario in which a suspect is believed to have knowledge about an immediate attack which could kill thousands of people. In order to protect our own society it could be said that in this very rare instance that extreme measures might be appropriate. On the other hand it appears that our military has been using some very brutal techniques as a matter of routine and have also destroyed videos of many of these interrogations. Personally I feel that when we resort to the torture of individuals and it becomes a commonplace occurrance and it's likely that completely innocent people are being tortured that we're no better than our enemies. What do you think?
I do not know if you have been in battle conditions. Many people find it easy to judge situations without knowing the realities and horrors of war. In other words it is easy to be a arm chair quarterback.
In the stresses and pressures of war it is not clear if the decision is the right one when trying to get information that is needed to save lives. Is going to war civil? No, not at all. It is a shame the we have to resort to kill each other because we cannot settle differences in a peaceful way. So to say that waterboarding is cruel is no way as bad as still killing thousands others in the battlefield. In other words it is OK to kill in the battlefield where wrong decisions are made and yet waterboarding is so bad when in many instance it is only a mental and physical stress that the individual can still go on with life later.

You have a great day.
El Amigo
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