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Old 06-24-2019, 03:06 PM
 
13,493 posts, read 4,996,362 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
There are no other possibilities. What do you call it without a designer?
You can not think of any other possibilities.

are you a real theist? or an atheist just meta-gaming?
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Old 06-24-2019, 08:08 PM
 
Location: Ohio
19,910 posts, read 14,235,190 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
There are no other possibilities. What do you call it without a designer?
There is no designer.

The mere suggestion that humans or any other organism were designed disproves your own claim.

Humans were haphazardly thrown together. A small child or a chimpanzee could have done a better job. Hell, Stevie Wonder could have done a better job.

Not only were humans haphazardly thrown together, so were their forbears and every living organism on Earth that preceded them.
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Old 06-25-2019, 11:31 AM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
5,667 posts, read 2,870,063 times
Reputation: 2881
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
There is no designer.

The mere suggestion that humans or any other organism were designed disproves your own claim.

Humans were haphazardly thrown together. A small child or a chimpanzee could have done a better job. Hell, Stevie Wonder could have done a better job.

Not only were humans haphazardly thrown together, so were their forbears and every living organism on Earth that preceded them.
Exactly
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Old 06-25-2019, 11:52 AM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
15,377 posts, read 12,133,948 times
Reputation: 16624
Quote:
Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
Exactly
Re: No designer.
Ha! And here I am esp, after watching the 'The Star of Bethlehem' docu movie ...online...I see
not just a Designer...but the most brilliant, intricate lay out,
plan, blueprint, pattern, system imaginable!
As if the stars and planets move like a Swiss clock...and that nothing happens without a reason.
How diff we all are!
Kepler saw it, too...and even today NASA uses his equations from the 16c...sheer
mathematical genius- extraordinaire. (Kepler and the Designer of All That Is.)
Look up the Rosetta Project to see the brilliance.
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Old 06-25-2019, 03:58 PM
 
Location: Ohio
19,910 posts, read 14,235,190 times
Reputation: 16090
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn View Post
Re: No designer.
Ha! And here I am esp, after watching the 'The Star of Bethlehem' docu movie ...online...I see
not just a Designer...but the most brilliant, intricate lay out,
plan, blueprint, pattern, system imaginable!
There's no designer. It's all random chance and accident.

You exist only because ~2.5 Billion years ago an anaerobic bacteria mutated to be able to tolerate Oxygen.

That mutation was not by design, it was by accident.

If you watched the mini-series Chernobyl, you saw people die horrible deaths. If you time-traveled back to Earth circa 2.5 Billion years ago for 15-20 minutes, that's how you would die. The radiation was that intense.

You have radionuclides in the Earth's crust throwing off hard and soft x-rays, hard and soft gamma rays, Helium nuclei, neutrons and fission fragments. From the Sun and all the stars you have hard and soft x-rays, hard and soft gamma rays, neutrons, fission fragments and when there's a coronal mass ejection lots of protons, plus UV-A, UV-B and UV-C.

That's ionizing radiation. It's called ionizing radiation because when those particles pass through an atom or molecule, they often strike an orbiting electron and eject it, which then makes the atom or molecule an ion.

What happens after that is random chance, not design.

For a single-cell organism, it could die. Or it could procreate and its progeny die. Or it could procreate and its progeny survive long enough to procreate.

What happens after that is still random chance, not design. The circumstances -- which are all happenstance and not design -- could allow the mutated organism to proliferate, or not, in which case the organism dies out and that's the end of that.

And your view is not merely disgustingly subjective, it's also grotesquely ethnocentric, because you most certainly would not hold those views if you were on another planet.
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Old 06-25-2019, 04:17 PM
 
13,493 posts, read 4,996,362 times
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there is no designer like they teach, but its not an accident and random chance.

unless you mean random using the definition.
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Old 06-25-2019, 04:56 PM
 
39,066 posts, read 10,842,814 times
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"Sun comes up, sun goes down - can't explain that".Probably one of the most fatuous apologetics ever. Of course we can. But I can give the apologetic more credit than it deserves. It wasn't saying that we don't know about rotation of the earth, but the 'designer' idea.

It's not an idiotic question, it's one that deserves an answer. And the answer has nothing to do with this or that religion, but with cosmic origins, because even if we can explain every biological, physical or geological process in mechanical terms without there needing to be any kind of divine intervention, there's infinite regression back to 'Who or what made everything, then?'

And that has been answered so many times, and the believing side never seem to listen or remember.

Call it 'random accident' or we might prefer 'a known and predictable (1), but unplanned physical process', there is really No credible evidence for an Intelligent designer, though there is plenty of evidence of design through recurring, known and predictable natural physical processes. The whole question is wrongheaded. Planets orbit as regularly as clockwork, not because a god is seeing that they do, but it's what they naturally do unless a god makes them do something else.

Unthinking physical processes is what we Know is happening no matter how much it looks like a designed machine - never mind a controlled machine. It has been said so often, but they never listen - does a snowflake have to be designed? We know the forces that make them, wonderful to look at though they might be.

It only remains to deal with the claims of a personal relationship, how good it makes them feel, and how it transformed their lives. I am never going to be persuaded by that , never, even on a basis of falling in love with the 'cosmic mind' ( I suspect that they are simply falling in love with themselves) which is probably the only real argument they have (apart from 'we need it, true or not'). It has nothing to do with any particular religion or any particular god of any religion.

We had it with ID when it tried to separate it from the Bible. 'ID does not claim a particular creator, but just that there has to be one'. No there doesn't. Really. Not even a First cause' is unarguable. But none of that has (logically) (2) anything at all to do with religion, or any personal god.


(1) not as old Eusebius (I think - it's very much his insolent style) portrayed it when we posted to ask me to prophecy. We can't predict What will happen, but can predict the mechanism that (on examination) caused it to happen.' Goddunnit' explains nothing. It is in 'magic'. Something happening in fact without any mechanism (never mind no explanation) by an act of will.

(2) though the proponents of ID will say that ID doesn't claim that the creator is Biblegod (never mind Christian -god), just that they believe that it is. How that would work in the science class is a matter of speculation - I don't see how that would get the Bible or Jesus into class. But then if they ever got away with that crap, it would be moot - all education would be fundamentalist Christian - based anyway.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 06-25-2019 at 05:08 PM..
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Old 06-25-2019, 05:46 PM
 
40,056 posts, read 26,739,576 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
It's not an idiotic question, it's one that deserves an answer. And the answer has nothing to do with this or that religion, but with cosmic origins, because even if we can explain every biological, physical or geological process in mechanical terms without there needing to be any kind of divine intervention, there's infinite regression back to 'Who or what made everything, then?'

And that has been answered so many times, and the believing side never seem to listen or remember.
You keep treading close to banned discussion, Arq. The reason we don't listen or remember is that the question is NOT answered. The processes you describe as "natural" because they "just are that way" do not in any way explain or exclude a source or reason for why "they are that way." You are comfortable NOT knowing why "they are that way" but that does NOT automatically eliminate the question why "they are that way." It COULD be because the existence of God requires them to be that way OR God willed it. Of course, our ignorance of why "they are that way" does not automatically make God the reason "they are that way." But that is why we have believers and non-believers and this view is banned from the forum.
Quote:
Unthinking physical processes is what we Know is happening no matter how much it looks like a designed machine - never mind a controlled machine. It has been said so often, but they never listen - does a snowflake have to be designed? We know the forces that make them, wonderful to look at though they might be.
REALLY, Arq? Will you explain HOW we KNOW "Unthinking physical processes is what we Know is happening."
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Old 06-25-2019, 06:24 PM
 
13,493 posts, read 4,996,362 times
Reputation: 1365
designed, as in hand made vs accident. neither match match what we see.

so what do we do? list the properties of the system we are in and see what gives?

the only ones that don't want that are the ones that think a discussion on religion and god are the same thing.
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Old 06-25-2019, 06:29 PM
 
Location: southern california
55,665 posts, read 74,620,384 times
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Since the knee jerk reaction of any attempt to explain personal events of divine intervention is —it was all 100% luck
What proof could possibly be provided that would be acceptable?
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