An Intellectual's Christian Narrative: A Non-Magical Alternative (holidays, atheist, quote)

[Tzaphkiel]

Originally Posted by Gaylenwoof

I'm curious to know who you mean. I can't think of a single example of an atheist or academic who claims to know "all there is to know." But, since you mention it, I do find it interesting that most religious people believe in an all-knowing God who has all the absolute answers to everything. So, although a religious person does not claim to know everything directly, they are, in effect, claiming that they are "tight with the big guy" and thus have direct access to the ultimate truth about everything. And they seem to feel that this direct access gives them a type of intellectual and moral authority that non-believers don't have. So, in effect, the believer is saying that, although God doesn't tell me everything, he does tell me certain things, and these thing are absolutely true, even if they contradict science, history, etc.

As I see it, the ultimate hubris is not on the atheists who (in all cases that I am aware of) admit to not knowing the ultimate meaning of life (or even if there is a meaning), nor on the academics who (so far as I am aware) all express amazement when they inevitably discover that "The more I know, the more I come to realize how much I don't know). I'd say the hubris is on the theist who believes he or she has an intimate, personal relationship with the all-knowing Source of all meaning. Maybe their claims are true, but I think it is wise to be suspicious of such grandiose claims.

it is not in conflict, it is complementary.
it is a lens for viewing, for viewing with understanding from a different vantage point.
this provides a more in depth understanding than that of merely superficial appearances.
it is not an either-or; it is layer upon layer upon layer of meaning.

there is looking at the surface, and there is looking beyond surface appearances.
that is what we are asked to develop, that is the person we are asked to become.
and the truth of who we are, every one of us, is that we are directly connected to the Source.
That is your birthright.


and i agree with you that the wisest people are the ones who say "I know nothing"

[Tzaphkiel]

and regarding a person's birthright, "Spirit is a natural dimension of every person"
here is article from earlier thread.

Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel

Are you then saying that hospitals and the military are delusional? And also their funding sources and Board of Directors and senior leadership? since they have paid chaplains on staff and chapels on site.

Here is a link to article on spirit and healthcare.
http://www.wechaplainsweb.co.uk/wp-c...healthcare.pdf

[Matadora]

Originally Posted by Arach Angle

lmao, i challenged you directly and you ran away behind the same nonsense you posted here. You and your little groupies hiding behind back door DM's.

Unsubstantiated nonsense as usual. It's quite infantile thinking as well.

Originally Posted by Arach Angle

lmao, who had to contact you?

I have no clue what you're talking about.

Originally Posted by Arach Angle

I challenged you directly and that guy nozzfondo and you both ran away hiding behind "i am not here to talk about my beliefs" or or something silly like that.

Yep just as I suspected...your "or something silly like that" statement says it all. It says that you have no understanding on what we post.

Originally Posted by Arach Angle

Since then, it has come to pass that your religious practices like lucid dreaming, feeling the force, or something like that is very similar to that kind of stuff that people do to feel connected to their surrounds.

This again? Perhaps you need a reading interpretation coach.

1. Lucid Dreaming is not a religious practice.
2. Sensing energy is not a religious practice.

Do you comprehend?

Originally Posted by Arach Angle

But I challenge you again, that's again because I did it before and you ran away. To state otherwise is proof of your tactics and how you think you know what's best for public consumption.

What you call running away vs. realizing that you are not here to engage in a civil intelligent discussion are completely separate things.

Originally Posted by Arach Angle

Measurements don't lie. they are the best thing we have to make a claim.

However, measurements are only as accurate as the measuring devices ability to measure. You know...things such as uncertainties and limits of the measuring device. Never forget this.

Originally Posted by Arach Angle

When we compare (measure) the biosphere's interactions taken as a whole, do they match best (to the instruments register marks) with with other volumes, that we classify as life, non life, or tweener?

I would like for you to explain exactly what interactions you are specifically referring to with respect to comparing and measuring biosphere.

I think you could learn a thing or two from Dennis Baldocchi.

Why is measuring the biosphere so hard?

Actors span a huge spectrum in space scales, from the tiniest bacteria, that may be on the order of a micron; to the organelles and cells of a leaf, and how they are assembled together to form a leaf; how leaves are assembled to form a plant; how plants are assembled to form a canopy; how patches of vegetation and soil interact to form a landscape; how landscape interact to form an ecosystem; how climate and ecosystems interact to form a biome; how biomes are collected on a continent and finally, how these continents act together on the globe.

Different biophysical processes operate on different time scales. Some processes are fast, <milliseconds, like how chloroplasts respond to sun-flecks that drive photosynthesis. Other processes operate with daily cycle of the rise and fall of the sun in the sky; it is daily variation in sunlight that provides the energy that draws water out of the plant, warms the soil and draws CO2 out of the atmosphere. Slower oscillations are associated with how organisms grow and compete with one another on monthly, seasonal and annual times scales. The birth, life and death individuals leads to slower transitions on years, to decades and century time scales.**The decomposition of dead material slowly works into the soil and rock substrate, forming soils on century and millennia. At geological scales—many millennia, periods and eons‐‐there are movements of continents, major changes in climate and the evolution and extinction of species.

How you measure the biosphere depends upon time and space scale.

Originally Posted by Arach Angle

I am willing to see this through.

Act civil and learn how to comprehend what you read vs. tossing around what you "think" is being stated and perhaps you will be able to see this through.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel

Your personal feeling very much is a huge determining factor in the quality of how your life works.
What you believe definitely influences and determines how your daily life works.
What you think believe feel and desire yes shapes what you bring into reality. In your own world and in the big world. That is (a large part of) the process of creation which yes has a mechanism. That is why there is such an emphasis on "doing the right thing" and a high level of personal responsibility and integrity.

I begin to see why we talk at cross purposes in these discussions, Tzaph. We are approaching them from diametrically opposed perspectives. I am generally using the perspective that Gaylen and most empiricists use. But at a very abstract level, I not only agree with the things you assert about our subjective experience of life, but I believe it is an objective reality. I really do believe that what we create in our consciousness IS real and WILL constitute some aspects of whatever the next stage comprises. This could be very unsettling for most of us because our imaginings, thoughts, and feelings are not completely under our control. Some of them can be very troubling as substantive aspects of our reality and as aspects of an afterlife.

[Tzaphkiel]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

I begin to see why we talk at cross purposes in these discussions, Tzaph. We are approaching them from diametrically opposed perspectives. I am generally using the perspective that Gaylen and most empiricists use. But at a very abstract level, I not only agree with the things you assert about our subjective experience of life, but I believe it is an objective reality. I really do believe that what we create in our consciousness IS real and WILL constitute some aspects of whatever the next stage comprises. This could be very unsettling for most of us because our imaginings, thoughts, and feelings are not completely under our control. Some of them can be very troubling as substantive aspects of our reality and as aspects of an afterlife.

they are when we take responsibility for them.
you are responsible for your thought, speech, action, and feelings.
all of it.
that's what free will is.

and it's not about the afterlife it's about the here and now.
how we treat others. and the work of refining our own character.

what makes you uncomfortable about taking responsibility for that?

here's an exercise for you Mystic. One way to read scripture (all of it not just the bits that please you) is that it is all about you and only you. All the battles, all the people, all the bad guys, all the good guys, all the kings and peasants and slaves, all the contradictions, they are all a map to your inner world. A guide and map to your personality, psychology, all of it is parts of yourself, your struggles, everything you will ever deal with and possible ways to respond and subsequent outcomes. It is the most masterful insight to psychology and understanding of human nature that I have ever come across. I'm curious to hear what you get out of it when you read it that way. Simple prayer to accompany this reading "God, what is this showing me about myself? Show me what it is I need to see and know." Easy peasy.

but my hunch is ........that's not your cup of tea.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

I begin to see why we talk at cross purposes in these discussions, Tzaph. We are approaching them from diametrically opposed perspectives. I am generally using the perspective that Gaylen and most empiricists use. But at a very abstract level, I not only agree with the things you assert about our subjective experience of life, but I believe it is an objective reality. I really do believe that what we create in our consciousness IS real and WILL constitute some aspects of whatever the next stage comprises. This could be very unsettling for most of us because our imaginings, thoughts, and feelings are not completely under our control. Some of them can be very troubling as substantive aspects of our reality and as aspects of an afterlife.

Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel

they are when we take responsibility for them.
you are responsible for your thought, speech, action, and feelings.
all of it.
that's what free will is.

and it's not about the afterlife it's about the here and now.
how we treat others. and the work of refining our own character.

what makes you uncomfortable about taking responsibility for that?

Please try harder to restrain your knee-jerk rejections of what I am trying to say and stop drawing inferences that are non-sequitur. I take maximum responsibility for my thoughts, feelings, speech, and actions. Your pretense that yours are entirely under your control is specious and reveals a troubling ignorance of human psychology.

here's an exercise for you Mystic. One way to read scripture (all of it not just the bits that please you) is that it is all about you and only you. All the battles, all the people, all the bad guys, all the good guys, all the kings and peasants and slaves, all the contradictions, they are all a map to your inner world. A guide and map to your personality, psychology, all of it is parts of yourself, your struggles, everything you will ever deal with and possible ways to respond and subsequent outcomes. It is the most masterful insight to psychology and understanding of human nature that I have ever come across. I'm curious to hear what you get out of it when you read it that way.

If you actually took the time to read and digest what I posted you would realize that I have done just that and far more. By relegating the mythos and narrative to a chronology of the evolution of our consciousness (spiritual understanding), I have done essentially that and more.

[Tzaphkiel]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

Please try harder to restrain your knee-jerk rejections of what I am trying to say and stop drawing inferences that are non-sequitur. I take maximum responsibility for my thoughts, feelings, speech, and actions. Your pretense that yours are entirely under your control is specious and reveals a troubling ignorance of human psychology. If you actually took the time to read and digest what I posted you would realize that I have done just that and far more. By relegating the mythos and narrative to a chronology of the evolution of our consciousness (spiritual understanding), I have done essentially that and more.

speaking of "ignorance of human psychology,"
how many years or decades have you had in counseling, therapy, addiction recovery work?

[Gaylenwoof]

Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel

One way to read scripture (all of it not just the bits that please you) is that it is all about you and only you. All the battles, all the people, all the bad guys, all the good guys, all the kings and peasants and slaves, all the contradictions, they are all a map to your inner world. A guide and map to your personality, psychology, all of it is parts of yourself, your struggles, everything you will ever deal with and possible ways to respond and subsequent outcomes. It is the most masterful insight to psychology and understanding of human nature that I have ever come across.

This is actually rather interesting to me. It seems like you are reading/interpreting scriptures in basically the same way one would read astrology birth charts, tarot cards, or do dream analysis, etc. I've have my astrology birth chart prepared by a couple of different astrologers, and for a while I even prepared birth charts for various people (never for profit; just for the fun of it). I've also dabbled in Tarot readings and I-Ching. But most interesting for me where the Jungian and Gestalt forms of dream analysis. I suppose I should also mention that my wife has a Master's degree and works as a counselor, so while she was in school I was subjected to many hours of psychological testing because she needed to practice for her classes. Anywayz, I've never tried reading the Bible from that point of view. To be honest, I see no good reason why the Bible should be any better for this sort of thing than reading, say, The Mists of Avalon, or the Lord of the Rings Trilogy, or the Harry Potter series, but I find the general idea to be very interesting, nonetheless (and, of course, to each his own). As I see it, virtually any form of art, literature, music, meditation, etc., can be a source of personal insight if approach with a spirit of mindfulness. Overall, I think that Jungian dreamwork and Raja Yoga meditation were the most inspiring and insightful for me.

[TroutDude]

Originally Posted by Gaylenwoof

...snip... As I see it, virtually any form of art, literature, music, meditation, etc., can be a source of personal insight if approach with a spirit of mindfulness. Overall, I think that Jungian dreamwork and Raja Yoga meditation were the most inspiring and insightful for me.

Agreed to the first sentence.

Fishing and staying still in natural surroundings while watching everything have always worked for me.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by nateswift

In this instance, yes. But there IS a difference and "meaning" that is not based in demonstrable truth is, at best, highly suspect.