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it's about clear communication that is effective in conveying a message.
"muddy" (not clear) communication gives the appearance of "muddy" (not clear) thinking and "muddy" (not clear) logic.
it has nothing to do with "worst possible interpretation"
it is reflecting back what was said and pointing out what is problematic.
if someone is not clear in their thinking, logic, and communication it erodes credibility and reliability of (a) the message and (b) the source of the message. If someone wants to "make the perspective as strong as possible" that is their job through effective communication, not the reader's job to unearth or figure out what they are trying to say.
this "grouping" you use causes confusion because you use "abstract" and "concrete" in the opposite way that they are generally used, in common usage.
you use:
objective/abstract/quantifiable
subjective/concrete/qualitative
however generally people group these together:
objective /a̶b̶s̶t̶r̶a̶c̶t concrete / quantifiable -------> can be verified, agreed upon, measured, repeated. same for everyone.
subjective /c̶o̶n̶c̶r̶e̶t̶e abstract / qualitative -------> private, individual, can not be seen or verified or validated by others.
using "what a poem means" or "what a piece of art evokes" is an example. That is not concrete, it is abstract. It is a real and genuine meaning or response for the person, but it varies from person to person and can not be quantified or measured objectively.
I am sorry you mistrust my motives and intentions just because they are antithetical to your core beliefs. My mode of communication, as you point out, assumes too much of my audience. I essentially agree with your assertions about concrete and abstract. What is confusing for everyone apparently is that our very consciousness itself is abstract. That is why we assign the term to its products like "what a poem means" or "what a piece of art evokes." My attempt to make this point using melody failed miserably and I am at a loss how to rectify it. Gaylen's awesome gifts notwithstanding, he seems to encounter the same intellectual roadblocks.
The generic issue is the general belief that products of our consciousness do NOT exist within our Reality which is what leads to the assumption that what produces them doesn't exist and is an illusion. This stems from the phenomenon we call imagination. BUT EVERYTHING THAT WE EXPERIENCE WHETHER PHYSICALLY WITH OUR BODIES OR MENTALLY WITH OUR CONSCIOUSNESS EXISTS AS SOME FORM OF ENERGY/MASS/MOMENTUM MANIFESTATION OF THE UNIFIED FIELD. This agrees with and supports Gaylen's suggestion that everything is physical in some sense but not all such manifestations are measurable (at least not with current technology). Still, since their effects ARE detectable and measurable in an indirect fashion, we know they DO exist. I remain non-plussed by the apparent ease with which people will deny their own existence along with the existence of the products of their imagination as illusory. In what way can they manifest "energically" without being real?????
however generally people group these together:
objective /a̶b̶s̶t̶r̶a̶c̶t concrete / quantifiable -------> can be verified, agreed upon, measured, repeated. same for everyone.
subjective /c̶o̶n̶c̶r̶e̶t̶e abstract / qualitative -------> private, individual, can not be seen or verified or validated by others.
Yes, but the common way of grouping these ideas is wrong and leads to profound philosophical, logical, scientific, and spiritual confusion.
Go slam your fist into a concrete wall. What do you experience? Concrete! Literally. You don't experience neural firing patterns, or the empty space of which atoms are mostly composed, or the electromagnetic bonds between atoms, etc. No. The feelings of cool, abrasive, solid texture and the pain in your knuckles is the literally concrete experience. The color of your bloody hand is concrete too, albeit more metaphorically speaking. Is this experience "private"? Yes and no. Your particular instance of experience is private (hence what I have been calling "the logic of subjectivity"), but I can hit the wall too, and in this way I, too, can have the concrete experience. What we commonly think of as "objective" is, really, intersubjective. Subjective experience is a necessary condition for the possibility of any knowledge of "objective" reality because everything we can know about "objective" reality depends on intersubjective experience.
"Abstraction" comes into the picture when we have a bunch of experiences and we notice patterns and we identify certain common features in all of these different experiences. Thus we get categories such as "rock" "tree" "squirrel" "atom" "neuron" "gravitational force" etc. The concrete particularity of many different momentary experiences gives rise (with the help of memory) to concepts - general categories. THOSE are abstract - especially in creatures like us who convey information via symbols like words and numbers. Dogs are "concrete experiencers." Their brains generate implicit categories, but they don't explicitly conceptualize in term of those categories in order to communicate abstract ideas.
Signs and symbols are abstract; individual lived experiences are not abstract. Physics is driven by signs and symbols. Theoretical entities (atoms, forces, etc.) are abstract concepts conveyed from one person to another via symbols (the meanings of which are abstract). We understand these abstract meanings only because we subjectively experience what it is like to understand the meanings of these symbols (the "micro Ah-ha!s" that constitute "knowing what that concept means to me.") Consciousness is experience of an object that is meaningful for me.
Symbols can evoke meaning in experiencers who are capable of having the relevant subjective "meaningful for me" experiences. Symbols, just in themselves, are not meaningful. Experiencers constitute the meaning of symbols via subjective processes (i.e., processes that are "mine" from the subject's point of view). Meaning is always meaning for me, from the point of view of some experiencer.
Basically: symbols can evoke meaning, but they don't constitute meaning. Only experiencers, via subjective processes, can constitute meaning.
Physics can't convey "the meaning of red for me" via symbols, which merely convey abstract concepts because the "meaning of red for me" is not abstract; it is the concrete particular lived quality of an experiencer's subjective point of view.
An equation can evoke the meaning of the "fire in the equation" only if the recipient of the message is an experiencer who is capable of concretely constituting the meaning of the fire. So long a Mary remains color-deprived, the abstract symbols of physic won't evoke the fire, as such, for her. What she will experience is only what it is like to have an abstract understanding of red.
Last edited by Gaylenwoof; 05-04-2018 at 12:50 PM..
Yes, but the common way of grouping these ideas is wrong and leads to profound philosophical, logical, scientific, and spiritual confusion.
Go slam your fist into a concrete wall. What do you experience? Concrete! Literally. You don't experience neural firing patterns, or the empty space of which atoms are mostly composed, or the electromagnetic bonds between atoms, etc. No. The feelings of cool, abrasive, solid texture and the pain in your knuckles is the literally concrete experience. The color of your bloody hand is concrete too, albeit more metaphorically speaking. Is this experience "private"? Yes and no. Your particular instance of experience is private (hence what I have been calling "the logic of subjectivity"), but I can hit the wall too, and in this way I, too, can have the concrete experience. What we commonly think of as "objective" is, really, intersubjective. Subjective experience is a necessary condition for the possibility of any knowledge of "objective" reality because everything we can know about "objective" reality depends on intersubjective experience.
"Abstraction" comes into the picture when we have a bunch of experiences and we notice patterns and we identify certain common features in all of these different experiences. Thus we get categories such as "rock" "tree" "squirrel" "atom" "neuron" "gravitational force" etc. The concrete particularity of many different momentary experiences gives rise (with the help of memory) to concepts - general categories. THOSE are abstract - especially in creatures like us who convey information via symbols like words and numbers. Dogs are "concrete experiencers." Their brains generate implicit categories, but they don't explicitly conceptualize in term of those categories in order to communicate abstract ideas.
Signs and symbols are abstract; individual lived experiences are not abstract. Physics is driven by signs and symbols. Theoretical entities (atoms, forces, etc.) are abstract concepts conveyed from one person to another via symbols (the meanings of which are abstract). We understand these abstract meanings only because we subjectively experience what it is like to understand the meanings of these symbols (the "micro-ah-has" that constitute "knowing what that concept means to me.") Consciousness is experience of an object that is meaningful for me.
Symbols can evoke meaning in experiencers who are capable of having the relevant subjective "meaningful for me" experiences. Symbols, just in themselves, are not meaningful. Experiencers constitute the meaning of symbols via subjective processes (i.e., processes that are "mine" from the subject's point of view). Meaning is always meaning for me, from the point of view of some experiencer.
Basically: symbols can evoke meaning, but they don't constitute meaning. Only experiencers, via subjective processes, can constitute meaning.
Physics can't convey "the meaning of red for me" via symbols, which merely convey abstract concepts because the "meaning of red for me" is not abstract; it is the concrete particular lived quality of an experiencer's subjective point of view.
An equation can evoke the meaning of the "fire in the equation" only if the recipient of the message is an experiencer who is capable of concretely constituting the meaning of the fire. So long a Mary remains color-deprived, the abstract symbols of physic won't evoke the fire, as such, for her. What she will experience is only what it is like to have an abstract understanding of color.
if a person is not willing or able to address why the communication is not effective, then the communication remains ineffective. You want people to see and think and believe and talk the very same way you do. However people don't, and that is a good thing. And for all your talk of "seeing the other side" and "playing devil's advocate" you don't see the other side. Neither you nor MPD really see or get or listen to or pay attention to how other people view things. There is the steamroller insistence on getting your views across, and walls of text and endless videos and exhausting talking at others. You and MPD demand to be heard and understood, but do not offer that in return. There is no reciprocity. You have "ideas in your head" and "preconceived notions" about what others believe and how they think that for the most part bear no resemblance whatsoever to what others actually do believe and how they think. And it never changes because you and MPD talk at people and are so convinced you are "right" (read the first line of your post above) that you don't listen to let alone begin to grasp how others see things.
There is a huge difference between "being right" and "being understood." My observation is that you and MPD are primarily focused on the former. Understanding someone is not the same as agreeing with them. Trans and I disagree on a bunch of things but I really and truly feel like there is understanding between us. And respect. And dignity. Those are missing when someone is focused on "being right" and showing others "where they are wrong" instead of "understanding how they see things." And Trans is not a snob. To constantly tell people they are wrong and of inferior intellect is an obstacle the size of a boulder to both learning and effective communication ("here let me tell you what a stupid idiot you are so that you will see how smart I am and how wrong you are") and a character defect of gargantuan proportions.
NOTE: this is in response to Gaylen's post, but is not aimed at him alone personally, it is addressed to behaviors and attitudes we see over and over (and over) in this thread.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 05-04-2018 at 01:35 PM..
When you talk about the Laws of Energy Conservation ( energy is neither created nor destroyed)...you need to add the specification that this Law only pertains to an isolated system.
In physical science, an isolated system is either of the following:
a physical system so far removed from other systems that it does not interact with them.
a thermodynamic system enclosed by rigid immovable walls through which neither matter nor energy can pass.
You never answered my question. What do you think happens to the energy contained within a candle flame once the candle flame has been extinguished. It's the exact same thing that happens to us once we expire. There is no more energy to give off once our fuel supply and metabolism expire. All chemical processes stop.
Do you think the Law of Conservation of Energy applies to our consciousness?
When you talk about the Laws of Energy Conservation ( energy is neither created nor destroyed)...you need to add the specification that this Law only pertains to an isolated system.
In physical science, an isolated system is either of the following:
a physical system so far removed from other systems that it does not interact with them.
a thermodynamic system enclosed by rigid immovable walls through which neither matter nor energy can pass.
You never answered my question. What do you think happens to the energy contained within a candle flame once the candle flame has been extinguished. It's the exact same thing that happens to us once we expire. There is no more energy to give off once our fuel supply and metabolism expire. All chemical processes stop.
Do you think the Law of Conservation of Energy applies to our consciousness?
You are not using the context of our entire Reality (universe/multiverse?) as the system. The infrared and light radiation of the candle flame can be seen by eyes not physically present with the candle and continues into the universe perhaps until it is transformed by absorption or impact on a super sensitive retina of some creature millions of light years away. We know how the measurable radiation of a candle flame behaves but we do NOT know how the non-measurable radiation of our thoughts and feelings behave because we cannot conceive of something that absorbs or transforms them.
You are not using the context of our entire Reality (universe/multiverse?) as the system. The infrared and light radiation of the candle flame can be seen by eyes not physically present with the candle and continues into the universe perhaps until it is transformed by absorption or impact on a super sensitive retina of some creature millions of light years away. We know how the measurable radiation of a candle flame behaves but we do NOT know how the non-measurable radiation of our thoughts and feelings behave because we cannot conceive of something that absorbs or transforms them.
I did not ask you how the measurable radiation behaves. I asked you what happens to the energy of a flame once the flame is extinguished? It's exactly the same process that happens to us once we've extinguished.
We can most certainly measure the electromagnetic fields that brains give off.
Electroencephalography, Magnetoencephalography, local field potential recordings are some of the techniques that register the electromagnetic activity of the brain.
Beta waves (13-38 hz) occur when we are actively thinking, problem-solving, etc.
Delta waves (below 4 hz) occur during sleep
Theta waves (4-7 hz) are associated with sleep, deep relaxation (like hypnotic relaxation), and visualization
Alpha waves (8-13 hz) occur when we are relaxed and calm
Gamma brain waves (39-100 hz) are involved in higher mental activity and consolidation of information. And interesting study has shown that tibetan meditators produce higher levels of gamma than non-mediators both before and during meditation.
I did not ask you how the measurable radiation behaves. .I asked you what happens to the energy of a flame once the flame is extinguished? It's exactly the same process that happens to us once we've extinguished.
Yes you did. You asked what happens to the flame which IS infrared and light radiation that was produced and exists. That requires that we consider what happens to the already produced flames NOT any flames that cease to be produced when the candle is snuffed out.
Quote:
We can most certainly measure the electromagnetic fields that brains give off.
Electroencephalography, Magnetoencephalography, local field potential recordings are some of the techniques that register the electromagnetic activity of the brain.
Beta waves (13-38 hz) occur when we are actively thinking, problem-solving, etc.
Delta waves (below 4 hz) occur during sleep
Theta waves (4-7 hz) are associated with sleep, deep relaxation (like hypnotic relaxation), and visualization
Alpha waves (8-13 hz) occur when we are relaxed and calm
Gamma brain waves (39-100 hz) are involved in higher mental activity and consolidation of information. And interesting study has shown that tibetan meditators produce higher levels of gamma than non-mediators both before and during meditation.
You are describing the water but we are talking about the experience of drowning (i.e., the thoughts and feelings that are produced by those measured phenomena). They are the essential part of the phenomena and that means that they already exist and must be accounted for "energically" whether or not the organism keeps producing them.
... I asked you what happens to the energy of a flame once the flame is extinguished? It's exactly the same process that happens to us once we've extinguished.
a physical candle extinguished, can be re-lit months or years or decades later. same candle different flame.
a dead human body can not be re-animated months or years or decades later.
however the soul that left the dead human body can create and animate a new different human body months or years or decades later.
so in your "scenario" of candle and flame, and a human body dying, which part do you equate with the human life, the candle or the flame?
I am sorry you mistrust my motives and intentions just because they are antithetical to your core beliefs. My mode of communication, as you point out, assumes too much of my audience. I essentially agree with your assertions about concrete and abstract. What is confusing for everyone apparently is that our very consciousness itself is abstract. That is why we assign the term to its products like "what a poem means" or "what a piece of art evokes." My attempt to make this point using melody failed miserably and I am at a loss how to rectify it. Gaylen's awesome gifts notwithstanding, he seems to encounter the same intellectual roadblocks.
...
no your mode of communication assumes too little of your audience, and too much of yourself.
The roadblocks are not intellectual. The roadblocks are ineffective communication, inability to show regard for the people you are seeking to communicate with, inability to listen to or understand what others are saying, and setting yourself up as superior to others.
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