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Old 05-06-2018, 01:59 PM
 
63,504 posts, read 39,795,158 times
Reputation: 7808

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
The fact remains that those who think they are better than others, are not. That someone who tells others how smart he is, is demonstrating succinctly that he is not.
Do you believe there are people with higher IQ's than you, Tzaph? Does that automatically mean they think they are better than you? Do you think they should be ashamed to have a higher IQ than you and keep it secret?
Quote:
Note: this is talking about a behavior not any individual person. Someone who can't recognize and address problematic behaviors and attitudes (such as arrogance) is not smart and lacks rational thinking.
BS, you are specifically targeting me and trying to avoid TOS violations for personal attacks. Epic fail. Your attempt at deception is too obvious. YOU are inferring all the negative adjectives in your little not very subtle accusations in your definition of arrogant:

"making claims or pretensions to superior importance or rights; overbearingly assuming; insolently proud:
characterized by a sense of superiority, self-importance, or entitlement"

They do NOT describe me but the Asperger's spectrum which includes high IQ individuals is frequently characterized by the inability to "recognize and address problematic behaviors and attitudes" especially involving social interactions. Perhaps you can feel superior to me in that regard and satisfy your "itch."

 
Old 05-06-2018, 02:25 PM
 
21,960 posts, read 19,083,870 times
Reputation: 18072
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Do you believe there are people with higher IQ's than you, Tzaph? Does that automatically mean they think they are better than you? Do you think they should be ashamed to have a higher IQ than you and keep it secret? BS, you are specifically targeting me and trying to avoid TOS violations for personal attacks. Epic fail. Your attempt at deception is too obvious. YOU are inferring all the negative adjectives in your little not very subtle accusations in your definition of arrogant:

"making claims or pretensions to superior importance or rights; overbearingly assuming; insolently proud:
characterized by a sense of superiority, self-importance, or entitlement"
the behavior of boasting about a high IQ, and denigrating subject matter experts and other fields of knowledge, is arrogant.
the definition i posted is from an online dictionary.
it is pertinent to this thread topic because it is an obstacle to rational discourse, critical thinking, and intellectual discussion, all of which are elements this thread purports to address.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 05-06-2018 at 02:37 PM..
 
Old 05-06-2018, 02:53 PM
 
28,432 posts, read 11,506,092 times
Reputation: 2070
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
The fact remains that those who think they are better than others, are not. That someone who tells others how smart he is, is demonstrating succinctly that he is not.

Note: this is talking about a behavior not any individual person. Someone who can't recognize and address problematic behaviors and attitudes (such as arrogance) is not smart and lacks rational thinking.

arrogant
making claims or pretensions to superior importance or rights; overbearingly assuming; insolently proud:
characterized by a sense of superiority, self-importance, or entitlement:
its not about "thinking they are better". Yes, people thinking they are better than us is bad. But the fact remains, is some areas, they are better than us. i can't be a pro football player. not matter what, i can't be one.

no matter how rude and obnoxious a pro player is, he, in the end, is still correct. I can't play football. That obnoxious ball player is also another reason I am not for banning religion. some people need a self check. Atheism's deny everything denomination doesn't offer that self control component.
 
Old 05-06-2018, 03:07 PM
 
21,960 posts, read 19,083,870 times
Reputation: 18072
Also, "IQ" does not measure or indicate or correlate or translate to an ability to form rational beliefs, and to take rational action.


"The author addresses that intelligence is separate from rationality, a trait that IQ tests do not measure. The concept of dysrationalia, and the empirical evidence indicating that the condition is not rare, should help create a conceptual space in which we value abilities at least as important as those currently measured on IQ tests—abilities to form rational beliefs and to take rational action"

from this Scientific American article, "Rational and Irrational Thought: The Thinking That IQ Tests Miss; Why smart people sometimes do dumb things"
https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...iq-tests-miss/

"Ironically, the Nobel Prize in 2002 was awarded for studies of cognitive characteristics that are entirely missing from the most well-known mental assessment device in the behavioral sciences: intelligence tests. Scientists and laypeople alike tend to agree that “good thinking” encompasses sound judgment and decision-making – the type of thinking that helps us achieve our goals. Yet assessments of such good (rational) thinking are nowhere to be found on IQ tests."

"Critics of intelligence tests have long pointed out that the tests ignore important parts of mental life, mainly non-cognitive domains such as socio-emotional abilities, empathy, and interpersonal skills. But intelligence tests are also radically incomplete as measures of cognitive functioning, which is evident from the simple fact that many people display a systematic inability to think or behave rationally despite having a more than adequate IQ."

the author has also written a book
"What Intelligence Tests Miss: The Psychology of Rational Thought"
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news...137_42793.html

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 05-06-2018 at 03:20 PM..
 
Old 05-06-2018, 03:20 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 10,862,979 times
Reputation: 1870
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
sure, a cell biologist knows about cell biology.

it's when they claim that their knowledge of cell biology makes them an expert in theology, that is the problem.

when they want their expertise acknowledged, but they refuse to accept subject matter expertise in other areas, that is the problem.

so yes I agree that "education in and facility for a particular subject gives more complete and accurate information" in that subject. The problem with arrogance is this:
If what you state were the case you might have a leg ro stand on, but what Mystic and Gaylenwoof are talking about is more like a unified field theory in which all the "disciplines may be examined. One does not need to know all the rammifications or elements of the Nicene Creed to know that "It's a mystery (we don't know) but it's NOT this or that" is a fairly worthless load. An examination of assertions and their bases in fact is enough to know when someone is out on a limb.
It is not the expertise in one or more particular fields they are talking about, but how to examine ANY field for reasonable information. Mystic presents his method and conclusions.

The problem here is that you want historical conclusions accepted as valid without verification of method of getting to those conclusions or demonstration that they are warranted by the conditions that apply.
 
Old 05-06-2018, 03:21 PM
 
63,504 posts, read 39,795,158 times
Reputation: 7808
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
the behavior of boasting about a high IQ, and denigrating subject matter experts and other fields of knowledge, is arrogant.
YOU are the one characterizing my posts as "boasting" and "denigrating" thereby presumptuously claiming to know my state of mind and motives in disagreeing with you and your "subject matter experts." Your personal attacks are not remotely subtle and they expose a genuine animus toward me and my views apparently because they question and challenge your fundamentalist Chasidic views and your acceptance of pseudoscience and other questionable subject matter fields. Disagreement is NOT denigration. Questioning the scientific authenticity and validity of views is NOT denigration.
 
Old 05-06-2018, 03:25 PM
 
63,504 posts, read 39,795,158 times
Reputation: 7808
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Do you believe there are people with higher IQ's than you, Tzaph? Does that automatically mean they think they are better than you? Do you think they should be ashamed to have a higher IQ than you and keep it secret? BS, you are specifically targeting me and trying to avoid TOS violations for personal attacks. Epic fail. Your attempt at deception is too obvious. YOU are inferring all the negative adjectives in your little not very subtle accusations in your definition of arrogant:

"making claims or pretensions to superior importance or rights; overbearingly assuming; insolently proud:
characterized by a sense of superiority, self-importance, or entitlement"

They do NOT describe me but the Asperger's spectrum which includes high IQ individuals is frequently characterized by the inability to "recognize and address problematic behaviors and attitudes" especially involving social interactions. Perhaps you can feel superior to me in that regard and satisfy your "itch."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
the behavior of boasting about a high IQ
You didn't answer my question in the bold, Tzaph. You are the one inferring "boasting."
 
Old 05-06-2018, 03:34 PM
 
63,504 posts, read 39,795,158 times
Reputation: 7808
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Also, "IQ" does not measure or indicate or correlate or translate to an ability to form rational beliefs, and to take rational action.


"The author addresses that intelligence is separate from rationality, a trait that IQ tests do not measure. The concept of dysrationalia, and the empirical evidence indicating that the condition is not rare, should help create a conceptual space in which we value abilities at least as important as those currently measured on IQ tests—abilities to form rational beliefs and to take rational action"

from this Scientific American article, "Rational and Irrational Thought: The Thinking That IQ Tests Miss; Why smart people sometimes do dumb things"
https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...iq-tests-miss/

"Ironically, the Nobel Prize in 2002 was awarded for studies of cognitive characteristics that are entirely missing from the most well-known mental assessment device in the behavioral sciences: intelligence tests. Scientists and laypeople alike tend to agree that “good thinking” encompasses sound judgment and decision-making – the type of thinking that helps us achieve our goals. Yet assessments of such good (rational) thinking are nowhere to be found on IQ tests."

"Critics of intelligence tests have long pointed out that the tests ignore important parts of mental life, mainly non-cognitive domains such as socio-emotional abilities, empathy, and interpersonal skills. But intelligence tests are also radically incomplete as measures of cognitive functioning, which is evident from the simple fact that many people display a systematic inability to think or behave rationally despite having a more than adequate IQ."

the author has also written a book
"What Intelligence Tests Miss: The Psychology of Rational Thought"
Rationality vs. Intelligence
What is your point, Tzaph? Who are you arguing with? I said nothing about what IQ tests measure other than they do test "G" which is an essential feature of cognitive processing that identifies intellectual competence. Emotional competence, social facility, and the myriad other aspects that affect human functioning and interaction seem to be your concern. They have nothing to do with intellectual competence and they cannot help you justify "woo" that flies in the face of scientific knowledge.
 
Old 05-06-2018, 11:49 PM
 
21,960 posts, read 19,083,870 times
Reputation: 18072
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
What is your point, Tzaph? Who are you arguing with? I said nothing about what IQ tests measure other than they do test "G" which is an essential feature of cognitive processing that identifies intellectual competence. Emotional competence, social facility, and the myriad other aspects that affect human functioning and interaction seem to be your concern. They have nothing to do with intellectual competence and they cannot help you justify "woo" that flies in the face of scientific knowledge.
denigrating others does not display intellectual competence nor does it display rational thinking, sound judgment, or rational behavior, nor does it demonstrate the capacity for rational discourse.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 05-07-2018 at 12:02 AM..
 
Old 05-07-2018, 01:54 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 10,862,979 times
Reputation: 1870
Nor does whining about imagine slights.
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