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I think there was probably a real person named Jesus more or less around that time. But the Christ mythology is much larger and more ancient than the historical person. From a Jungian perspective, I can see ways in which Mythos can carry deep meaning and Truth for individuals, even if not literally accurate from a historical perspective.
[*]"visit by angels"[*]"visit by any dead person"[*]"heard a message from God"[*]God
For all of the above, my answer is that I don't know. I couldn't say with much confidence that they do exist, or that they don't exist. I am opened evidence and arguments either way. But I do feel fairly confident in saying that if any of these things do exist, then the nature of their existence is probably quite a bit different than the common interpretations found in general culture.
[*]God created the universe and everything in it
I very much doubt Divine Intelligent Design.
[*]every human has an eternal soul
Yeah, sorta, but the Eternal aspect is not personal, it's Universal. The Eternal aspect of consciousness is sorta like triangularity. Every particular triangle has triangularity - each particular triangle is an instantiation of the Universal. But I do not believe that the universal exists independent of the particulars. There are probably no conscious experiences independent of particular physically embodied experiences.
[*]reincarnation
On my theory, all of us could, in principle, have past life memories of actually being Cleopatra or Napoleon Bonaparte, etc., given the right embodied situations.
[*]prayer
BTW: I have to acknowledge that last week I had yet another situationin in which I prayed for the resolution of a seemingly impossible situation, and the situation was resolved. This feels like evidence for some sort of God, or guardian angel, or higher self type of idea. I don't really know what to think about it, metaphysically, but I'm grateful for these outcomes.
[*]placebo[*]miracle healing[*]Divine intervention[*]acupuncture[*]chi[*]there is an unseen energy that gives life and animates life
Lots of stuff going on that we don't currently understand scientifically. Most of it is probably tied to a lack of a good theory of consciousness.
I wouldn't read too much into that, Len mate. I have been through some sticky situations and they almost incredibly resolved in the end. And of course, I never prayed.
my point is that which MPD denounces and decries and disparages as "magic" "primitive" "superstition" "magical thinking" he also practices himself "visit from Jesus"
Nothing magical about it. Jesus has a consciousness and His consciousness was born again as Holy Spirit upon His death so it is available to us all in our consciousness (if we are receptive to it). No magic needed.
Nothing magical about it. Jesus has a consciousness and His consciousness was born again as Holy Spirit upon His death so it is available to us all in our consciousness (if we are receptive to it). No magic needed.
let's run it through what Nate offered on "magic thinking" with regards to in this instance the "visit from Jesus" example
"it provides you with comfort and encouragement because of the attitude you bring to it.
but it has no value in and of itself"
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift
"Magic thinking" from my standpoint is thinking that any religious observation, rite, ceremony or other such practice has value in itself as opposed to comfort or encouragement derived because we bring the attitude TO that practice. I.e. "baptism saves."
actually Nate's criteria holds up pretty well.
well done Nate.
it's the best anyone has come up with so far on this thread.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 11-04-2018 at 02:19 PM..
"Magic thinking" from my standpoint is thinking that any religious observation, rite, ceremony or other such practice has value in itself as opposed to comfort or encouragement derived because we bring the attitude TO that practice. I.e. "baptism saves."
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Nothing magical about it. Jesus has a consciousness and His consciousness was born again as Holy Spirit upon His death so it is available to us all in our consciousness (if we are receptive to it). No magic needed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
let's run it through what Nate offered on "magic thinking" with regards to in this instance the "visit from Jesus" example
"it provides you with comfort and encouragement because of the attitude you bring to it.
but it has no value in and of itself"
actually Nate's criteria holds up pretty well.
well done Nate.
it's the best anyone has come up with so far on this thread.
Except it doesn't apply. Nate was talking about "any religious observation, rite, ceremony or other such practice has value in itself." My encounter is none of those.
Except it doesn't apply. Nate was talking about "any religious observation, rite, ceremony or other such practice has value in itself." My encounter is none of those.
of course it is. through and through.
a religious figure visits you, he had a religion named after him, and your meaning of the religious message that religious figure brings is gleaned by you from studying religious holy books, and religious texts. That is very much "a religious observation, rite, practice." The words you consistently use "Comforter" "Jesus" are specific to a specific religion. they are not generic and they are not used by other religions nor are they used in a universal way. you describe yourself as "formerly Buddhist" and "formerly atheist." Now you very much identify with a religious figure who had a religion named after him. the imagery and foundation and symbolism you use Mystic is consistent with a specific religion and the story that particular religion tells. your "visit from Jesus" and the quote just below and you identify as a Crstn...it doesn't get any more crystal clear that is religious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Nothing magical about it. Jesus has a consciousness and His consciousness was born again as Holy Spirit upon His death so it is available to us all in our consciousness (if we are receptive to it). No magic needed.
"it provides you with comfort and encouragement because of the attitude you bring to it.
but it has no value in and of itself"
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift
"Magic thinking" from my standpoint is thinking that any religious observation, rite, ceremony or other such practice has value in itself as opposed to comfort or encouragement derived because we bring the attitude TO that practice. I.e. "baptism saves."
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 11-04-2018 at 03:40 PM..
also "baptism saves" is the same type of religious belief / primitive magical thinking / as "since Jesus death he is available to all"
"it provides you with comfort and encouragement because of the attitude you bring to it.
but it has no value in and of itself" Since it happened 2000 years ago, that makes it primitive.
"Magic thinking" from my standpoint is thinking that any religious observation, rite, ceremony or other such practice has value in itself as opposed to comfort or encouragement derived because we bring the attitude TO that practice. I.e. "baptism saves."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
= "visit from Jesus"
Not at all. My point is that "magical" (legendary) elements were added to the narrative of Jesus' ministry, so that should read "= exagerated reports of the 'visit from Jesus.'"
also "baptism saves" is the same type of religious belief / primitive magical thinking / as "since Jesus death, he is available to all"
"it provides you with comfort and encouragement because of the attitude you bring to it.
but it has no value in and of itself" Since it happened 2000 years ago, that makes it primitive.
Baptism is one of the rituals Nate was referring to, NOT my encounter. Baptism pretends that the immersion in water (or a sprinkling of water) in the name of Jesus (and His father and His father's Spirit) somehow magically endows you with the Holy Spirit. It actually does nothing but "provides you with comfort and encouragement because of the attitude you bring to it."
Not at all. My point is that "magical" (legendary) elements were added to the narrative of Jesus' ministry, so that should read "= exagerated reports of the 'visit from Jesus.'"
Everything written about him is magical mythical legendary. It's all embellishments and exaggerations and add ons
"it provides you with comfort and encouragement because of the attitude you bring to it.
but it has no value in and of itself" Since it happened 2000 years ago, that makes it primitive."
Washington Post 2014 article "Did historical Jesus really exist? The evidence just doesn't add up.
There are clearly good reasons to doubt Jesus’ historical existence." By Raphael Lataster
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 11-04-2018 at 07:52 PM..
Everything written about him is magical mythical legendary. It's all embellishments and exaggerations and add ons
"it provides you with comfort and encouragement because of the attitude you bring to it.
but it has no value in and of itself" Since it happened 2000 years ago, that makes it primitive."
Washington Post 2014 article "Did historical Jesus really exist? The evidence just doesn't add up.
There are clearly good reasons to doubt Jesus’ historical existence." By Raphael Lataster
The top part is spot on. I would change the last notion to ...
In the face of the exonerations there is no reason to question if he was real.
without the magic/mystery parts there is no reason to question if he was real at this point either.
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