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Old 01-14-2018, 05:15 PM
 
Location: Kent, Ohio
3,429 posts, read 2,720,247 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaylenwoof View Post
Given the existence of free will, and given the mixed bag of "seeds" we are born with (i.e., the "evil-prone" biological inclinations of our bodies combined with the vastly different environments into which we are born), I believe it is FAPP impossible for ANY intelligent entity - even Omni-dude - to guarantee that each and every incident in life is the result of intentional planning or guidance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
...we are not wind up toys. we are not robots. we are not chess pieces being moved around on the board by a committee. That is the absolute abnegation of all personal responsibility. I am saying the opposite. Free will is the opposite of that.

Situations are set up in advance (by us, by choice) and the essence of free will now that we are here is that we have a choice in how we respond to whatever we face in our life.
You didn't even come close to addressing my central point. If we, in fact, act on the basis of genuine free will during our biological lifetimes, then it is FAPP impossible for every event in life to be the result of intentional planning or guidance.

 
Old 01-14-2018, 05:29 PM
 
21,960 posts, read 19,083,870 times
Reputation: 18067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaylenwoof View Post
You didn't even come close to addressing my central point. If we, in fact, act on the basis of genuine free will during our biological lifetimes, then it is FAPP impossible for every event in life to be the result of intentional planning or guidance.
free will in setting up "situations" or "events" we will face in our life - set up ahead by us using our free will at the soul level even before we are born.

what is "undetermined" what is "NOT set in stone" is how we will respond to those situations. When we are wronged, will we seek revenge? When we have the chance do we steal from our company or not, lie to get that promotion or not? When we are faced with a horrible illness or terrible loss what do we do?

we use our free will in this given lifetime with every situation we face. Based on our choices we make in that situation, another possible set of scenarios kicks in, which we also plan in advance, by full agreement of all parties involved. This happens during our lifetime also. Your soul continues to set up situations for you with full agreement by all parties involved.

what am i missing? how is that not free will? how is that "impossible"
it is planning, guidance, choosing, shaping, creating, by you for you. In partnership with the intelligent responsive system you are operating within.

it is free will by my soul before i incarnate in this life in choosing the circumstances and scenarios i will face in this life.
and it is free will during this life how i respond in those situations and scenarios.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 01-14-2018 at 06:13 PM..
 
Old 01-14-2018, 05:47 PM
 
21,960 posts, read 19,083,870 times
Reputation: 18067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaylenwoof View Post
...If God is truly all-powerful, then God could have designed us to all have purely good natures. Every single one of us could have been born with genetics that ensure that we have compassionate, loving natures. We would be free to do evil if we wanted to, but given our natures, we simply wouldn't want to. Some people are born with genes that make them hate the taste of cilantro. These people are perfectly free to eat cilantro, if they want, but they are genetically predisposed to never really want that. Being born with genes that virtually guarantee that we will always feel love and compassion for other people is probably a natural impossibility (i.e., given the realities of physics, chemistry, and biology, it would be mathematically impossible (or, at least, FAPP impossible) for the entire human population to be born with purely loving and compassionate natures), but it is not logically impossible. So the question is: If Omni-dude is really Omni, then why not create a world in which universal love and compassion is, in fact, naturally possible and, indeed, naturally ensured?
if it is "automatic" and "ensured" and "obvious" then we are robots, wind-up toys.

the function and purpose of free will is to allow us to choose whether or not to "do the right thing."
we have a choice whether to be kind, compassionate, generous, honest, ethical, live a life of integrity.

we have the capacity to choose whether to be good, do good.....or not good.
that is what our free will plane of existence is about.
we can choose whether to develop and put into use our compassionate loving nature, which is innate though perhaps quiescent within us.

free will is about taking personal responsibility for the choices we make at every place in our life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaylenwoof View Post
...Atheist/agnostic/liberal theist answer: God is either not really Omni-dude or, God really doesn't care very much (if at all) about human suffering.

You might say that human beings are too limited to understand that, ultimately, God has indeed created the best of all logically possible worlds. You are certainly welcome to believe that, but I do not believe it. If this is the best of all logically possible worlds, then any deviation from how things actually are would be a move away from the best possible. Any change to a perfect world is either a "difference that makes no real difference" or it is a difference that makes the perfect world somewhat less than perfect. I do not believe that "the best of all logically possible worlds" has to be a world in which a girl suffers severe burns and eventually commits suicide. If the girl's suffering could have been avoided without making this a less than perfect world, then the girl's suffering must be irrelevant insofar as the standards of perfection are concerned. (Because if her suffering was indeed relevant, then the world in which she was not burned would be a better world than our perfect world, which is logically absurd.)
painful things happen. to everyone. we all die. we all suffer loss and heartache, pain and disappointment. that is a function of being human on this planet.
are you asking that to change and go away? because it's not going to. It's not rational or logical to expect that to change, whether a person is an atheist or not.

it is how we respond to the painful things in our life that we have a choice about.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 01-14-2018 at 07:03 PM..
 
Old 01-14-2018, 05:58 PM
 
21,960 posts, read 19,083,870 times
Reputation: 18067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaylenwoof View Post
Basically, to believe that an all-loving, all-good Omni-dude is possible because God's rationality is beyond human understanding, is to allow that blatantly illogical things can be logical if I believe that God's ultra-logical logic allows it. You might as well insist that 2+2=5 because God can do anything, and you believe that God says it's actually logical. If God's "real" logic seems illogical to our limited minds, then rationality has gone out the window because you can believe absolutely anything you want, and if someone says it's illogical, then all you have to do is say "God's logic allows it, even though it seems logical to mere humans." At that point, all hope of rational discussion immediately ends. All we can do at that point appeal to emotions and preferences in taste.
the system is logical. the system is rational. and free will asks for a person to take a high level of responsibility. (not blame....responsibility. ) that's what free will is all about. choosing between "doing the right thing" or not.

if the highest smartest wisest part of your self chose a situation for you, it must have had a really good reason for doing so. Stop putting it out there outside of you. Think about it from the inside, you on the inside of the situation experiencing it, you on the inside choosing for it to occur in your life.

That is another "what if" to try on for size and explore. If the highest wisest smartest part of yourself set up situations for you, why would it chose this or that? What does it ask of you in going through whatever situation is facing you?

This exploration and "what if" which in this case is a "why would I" is only used for you wondering about your own life and experiences. Personal responsibility is purely with regards to one person and that person is you and you alone. It is not about just having a "pat answer" or a "meaning" tacked on like a label or footnote. It is a process of transformation, of growth, of development, of advancement. It is not punishing, it is not mean or nasty or smug or vindictive. It is wise, compassionate, and has your best interests at heart always.

So instead of (or in addition to) asking "what does this mean" or "why is this happening to me" ask these kinds of questions with regards to situations in your own life (again YOU ONLY not analyzing or figuring out anyone else, ONLY YOU) "What does this ask of me?" "What are my choices in this situation?" "What are different ways that I can respond to this?" "Who am I asked to become in this situation"

If it is something that keeps happening over and over, again and again (I got fired again; my boss yelled at me again; this illness is recurring again) then explore these questions, "how can i respond differently this time" "what is this trying to tell me" "How is this asking me to grow" "who does this ask me to become"

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 01-14-2018 at 06:14 PM..
 
Old 01-14-2018, 06:05 PM
 
63,499 posts, read 39,795,158 times
Reputation: 7807
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaylenwoof View Post
You didn't even come close to addressing my central point. If we, in fact, act on the basis of genuine free will during our biological lifetimes, then it is FAPP impossible for every event in life to be the result of intentional planning or guidance.
It is becoming increasingly obvious that Tzaph does NOT engage in rational or logical thought. She has some variant that she equates with logic and reason but it has no basis in either. It seems grounded in therapeutic or clinical self-examination or self-improvement couched in a pseudo-theological raiment and magical thinking.
 
Old 01-14-2018, 07:33 PM
 
21,960 posts, read 19,083,870 times
Reputation: 18067
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
How can you NOT know what I mean by consciousness when your consciousness is what you are USING to conduct this conversation and it is what defines YOU as a person
because you have not defined the term, nor have you specified how you are using it in context
it appears you are unable to do so, or unwilling, or both.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 01-14-2018 at 07:48 PM..
 
Old 01-14-2018, 11:17 PM
 
63,499 posts, read 39,795,158 times
Reputation: 7807
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
How can you NOT know what I mean by consciousness when your consciousness is what you are USING to conduct this conversation and it is what defines YOU as a person?????
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
because you have not defined the term, nor have you specified how you are using it in context
it appears you are unable to do so or unwilling, or both.
Are you putting me on? That post CONTAINS the definition you say I am not providing??? Are you truly unable to comprehend it??? If so, Gaylen is wasting his considerable explanatory talents on someone who is incapable of understanding.
 
Old 01-14-2018, 11:41 PM
 
Location: Pacific 🌉 °N, 🌄°W
11,761 posts, read 7,222,850 times
Reputation: 7528
Sam Harris: What is Consciousness?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vao9HN_FqOE
 
Old 01-15-2018, 12:23 AM
 
21,960 posts, read 19,083,870 times
Reputation: 18067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora View Post
Sam Harris: What is Consciousness?
i have no interest in watching a 22-minute video by Sam Harris. (or any video by Sam Harris for that matter.)

the question is simple. my observation is that people who equate "god" with "nature" seem to be having a difficult time answering it. here in the religion and spirituality forum. (not the science forum. not the philosophy forum. not the atheism forum.)

what is the difference between God and nature?
how does a person differentiate between god and nature?

without using the word "consciousness."
use different words to say the same thing.
common words, common language, common usage.

(Gaylen so far is the only one who has answered it.)
 
Old 01-15-2018, 02:47 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 10,862,979 times
Reputation: 1870
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Are you putting me on? That post CONTAINS the definition you say I am not providing??? Are you truly unable to comprehend it??? If so, Gaylen is wasting his considerable explanatory talents on someone who is incapable of understanding.

I think what you are dealing with is a hostility to ideas and perceptions that are not consistent with what Tzaphkiel has chosen to believe. Simply an unwillingness to actually understand what is being said, but a reaction of opposition to what is presented.


I have to wonder why, if Gaylenwoof presented an explanation of consciousness that makes sense, that explanation could not be applied to the whole discussion. Are you presenting something that differs from that presentation?


If, for instance, if ANYone presented an actually rational explanation of the reason the animal sacrifices WERE an important part of the religion of the Hebrew people, but they no longer are, and the people who say so claim to be following that religion, then I would not have to ask for such an explanation.
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