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Old 01-15-2018, 11:53 AM
 
Location: Pacific 🌉 °N, 🌄°W
11,761 posts, read 7,221,038 times
Reputation: 7528

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
I think Tzaphy is probably the most intelligent person on this forum, isn't Mystic the Messiah himself?
That just made me spew my water all over my screen! LOL these are just your opinions thankfully! What you deem as intelligent and what's true intelligence are competently separate things.

There's nothing intelligent about twisting what others's say or being intellectually dishonest, or claiming that highly educated people cannot offer any discussion on the topic of "god" or that only certain exclusive individuals can discuss "god".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
I suppose you have to agree with your Messiah friend, after all, he is the Messiah isn't he?
I think his assessment of her logic and reasoning abilities is spot on. However, I don't agree with some of the things he posts but that one was spot on!

 
Old 01-15-2018, 12:05 PM
 
Location: Red River Texas
22,940 posts, read 10,300,058 times
Reputation: 2300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora View Post
That just made me spew my water all over my screen! LOL these are just your opinions thankfully! What you deem as intelligent and what's true intelligence are competently separate things.

There's nothing intelligent about twisting what others's say or being intellectually dishonest, or claiming that highly educated people cannot offer any discussion on the topic of "god" or that only certain exclusive individuals can discuss "god".
I think his assessment of her logic and reasoning abilities is spot on. However, I don't agree with some of the things he posts but that one was spot on!
Sounds like jealousy to me.
 
Old 01-15-2018, 12:46 PM
 
63,494 posts, read 39,789,724 times
Reputation: 7807
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
How can you NOT know what I mean by consciousness when your consciousness is what you are USING to conduct this conversation and it is what defines YOU as a person?????
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
without using the word "consciousness."
use different words to say the same thing.
common words, common language, common usage.
(Gaylen so far is the only one who has answered it.)
First of all Gaylen and I essentially agree on that issue. But what is NOT "common words, common language, common usage" about the bold in my post " your consciousness is what you are USING to conduct this conversation and it is what defines YOU as a person?" Do you actually NOT understand that sentence defining consciousness????
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
That's why I asked MPD to use different words to express whatever it is he is trying to say (in telling us how he differentiates between God and nature)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora View Post
That's not what we were discussing and you know it. We were discussing consciousness and the concept of god.
Anyone can discuss these concepts. They are not all EXCLUSIVE for only just some to discuss.
You have some of the most narrow views I have ever come across on this forum.
I agree with Mystic's assessment of you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
It is becoming increasingly obvious that Tzaph does NOT engage in rational or logical thought. She has some variant that she equates with logic and reason but it has no basis in either. It seems grounded in therapeutic or clinical self-examination or self-improvement couched in a pseudo-theological raiment and magical thinking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
I think Tzaphy is probably the most intelligent person on this forum, isn't Mystic the Messiah himself?
I suppose you have to agree with your Messiah friend, after all, he is the Messiah, isn't he?
ROFLMAO
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora View Post
That just made me spew my water all over my screen! LOL, these are just your opinions thankfully! What you deem as intelligent and what's true intelligence are competently separate things.
There's nothing intelligent about twisting what others's say or being intellectually dishonest, or claiming that highly educated people cannot offer any discussion on the topic of "god" or that only certain exclusive individuals can discuss "god".
I think his assessment of her logic and reasoning abilities is spot on. However, I don't agree with some of the things he posts but that one was spot on!
Thanks for the Harris video. I had seen it before. Now I have a link. Surprised and pleased by your support, Mat.
 
Old 01-15-2018, 01:11 PM
 
Location: Red River Texas
22,940 posts, read 10,300,058 times
Reputation: 2300
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post


ROFLMAO




Please forgive me O Lord God king of the universe.
 
Old 01-15-2018, 01:16 PM
 
Location: Missouri
611 posts, read 279,474 times
Reputation: 102
Default Remember way back when...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post

To give one example---does God punish the children of parents who do wrong in His sight. It depends on which verse of Scripture one gives heed to.

Exodus 20:5,6: “For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

compared to Ezekiel 18:20

The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.


Now its up to us to figure out which of these verses makes the most sense to us in our times and in our culture. Perhaps Exodus was a reflection on the years of slavery in Egypt and the writer so interpreted. But Ezekiel saw it in a different light.

If we can't "get" that, then we have no alternative but to believe in a god who is purely arbitrary whenever He is "inspiring" someone to write something down.
--Alternative--

Exodus 20:5-6
"For I the Lord am a jealous God." #5 Meaning of the word jealous in my dictionary gives this: 5. (in Biblical use) intolerant of unfaithfulness or rivalry: the Lord is a jealous God. And #6 now obsolete, zealous. And what does "Visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love me and keep my commandments really mean.

What happens to those that keep the commandments = Blessings
What happens to those that don't keep the commandments = Curses.

And the fathers that refuse to keep the commandments and teach their children to do so, God "...visits, or sees, the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third or fourth generations of those that hate me. Speaking of the results of their own actions. But showing mercy to those who love me and keep my commandments.

In other words the Father that is a liar and a thief and teaches his children his ways, has put his own iniquity upon his own children.

compared to Ezekiel 18:20, the one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share in the guilt of the parent. But if the Father teaches the child to sin, and the child follows after that father and does the same for how many generations will they be cursed? as long as they sin. And if the father sins, and the child turns away from his father's sin = Ezekiel 20:5-6

And what does this mean from Ezekiel 20: "The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them."

The sins of the Father is easily passed on to his children like a habit you can't brake. The Father that teaches his children to sin, puts the curse upon his children, unless they repent and do a 180.

And I don't think God is punishing us, I think it's a matter of reaping and sowing seeds. God created the earth and knows how things work.


That's not how it goes? Just thought I'd stop by today and look around.

-
 
Old 01-15-2018, 01:27 PM
 
Location: Kent, Ohio
3,429 posts, read 2,719,917 times
Reputation: 1667
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaylenwoof View Post
You didn't even come close to addressing my central point. If we, in fact, act on the basis of genuine free will during our biological lifetimes, then it is FAPP impossible for every event in life to be the result of intentional planning or guidance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
free will in setting up "situations" or "events" we will face in our life - set up ahead by us using our free will at the soul level even before we are born.

what is "undetermined" what is "NOT set in stone" is how we will respond to those situations. When we are wronged, will we seek revenge? When we have the chance do we steal from our company or not, lie to get that promotion or not? When we are faced with a horrible illness or terrible loss what do we do?

we use our free will in this given lifetime with every situation we face. Based on our choices we make in that situation, another possible set of scenarios kicks in, which we also plan in advance, by full agreement of all parties involved. This happens during our lifetime also. Your soul continues to set up situations for you with full agreement by all parties involved.

what am i missing? how is that not free will? how is that "impossible"
it is planning, guidance, choosing, shaping, creating, by you for you. In partnership with the intelligent responsive system you are operating within.

it is free will by my soul before i incarnate in this life in choosing the circumstances and scenarios i will face in this life.
and it is free will during this life how i respond in those situations and scenarios.
What you are missing is the utter absurdity of a bunch of souls getting together to plan for every contingent free will choice of every person you will meet in your life, and every person that these people will meet, and so on, until, FAPP, you need to be in cahoots with virtually every person who will be alive on Earth during your lifetime.

Let's return, once again, to the girl who was badly burned and lives several years with a lot of suffering until she commits suicide. Suppose she was burned by a malfunctioning stove and the malfunction traces back to the free choices of people she never met: A careless factory line worker, a plant inspector who plays video games rather than doing inspections, and numerous other people who were part of the causal chain (e.g., a driver on a nearby road who honks their car horn and distracts the child's mom, etc.) If any one of these many people makes a different choice, the girls does not get burned. I'm reminded of the infamous "three body problem" in physics. Even in determinate Newtonian physics, we cannot calculate the long-term behaviors of merely three non-conscious objects in perfect conditions wherein we don't have to worry about "noisy" factors like friction. So what happens if you have trillions of bodies in the complex real world, billion of which have free will? How do all of these souls agree to all of the possible contingencies? Answer: they can't. It's mathematically absurd. So what you have to do is wave your hand and say that somehow it all works. Souls make these choices and everything just works out. Never mind the details. Somehow all of our free choices form a perfect tapestry in which the girl is burned according to some prior agreement of souls. Period. Well, of course you can take that leap of faith and just assume that, despite everything we know about the natural world, this collusion of souls all works out the way you say it does, but don't pretend you're being rational when you take this leap of faith. It's basically just a variation of "God did it" as the answer to everything, when in fact it answers nothing.
 
Old 01-15-2018, 01:30 PM
 
21,957 posts, read 19,080,264 times
Reputation: 18067
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
... " your consciousness is what you are USING to conduct this conversation and it is what defines YOU as a person?":
That does not describe or address or clarify how you differentiate between God and nature. You seem to equate God and nature as being the same thing. That's why I asked what for you is the difference.

People ask you (or others) to use different words to say the same thing for increased clarity in trying to understand the view you are seeking to express.
 
Old 01-15-2018, 01:41 PM
 
21,957 posts, read 19,080,264 times
Reputation: 18067
Because in this post of yours I don't understand what it means. Or how it describes the difference between God and nature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
WE are everything that comprises us much of which is not very pleasant. Our internal processes that turn other previously living things into feces kill a lot of things and cause a lot of damage to those other living things. Is that US? I have no problem whatsoever separating the processes of nature and reality from the God they are part of. This is why you do not understand the significance of the phenomenon of consciousness that we are part of. Those things you describe are part of the reality that produces God's consciousness and the love that defines it, but they are not love. Love only exists within consciousness. Similarly, the character of our consciousness is NOT defined by the "feces factory" that produces it. The character of God is not defined by the existing processes of nature and reality that produce His consciousness.
The first bold phrase seems to say nature is part of God. Part means there is something more. So there is something more to God than just nature.

The second and third bold phrases seems to say nature produces God. That is what i'm asking you to clarify.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 01-15-2018 at 01:54 PM..
 
Old 01-15-2018, 01:47 PM
 
63,494 posts, read 39,789,724 times
Reputation: 7807
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
How can you NOT know what I mean by consciousness when your consciousness is what you are USING to conduct this conversation and it is what defines YOU as a person?????
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
That does not describe or address or clarify how you differentiate between God and nature. You seem to equate God and nature as being the same thing. That's why I asked what for you is the difference.
People ask you (or others) to use different words to say the same thing for increased clarity in trying to understand the view you are seeking to express.
You are very resistant to any explanations that do not conform to your vague, magical, platitudinous, and mysterious concepts of God and reincarnation. The formal jargon for my overall view is panentheism which encompasses the immanence and the transcendence of God. We represent a useful model to understand that immanence and transcendence. Our physical body is the immanent aspect of our Being and our consciousness is the transcendent aspect. Our entire physical reality (Nature) is the immanent aspect of God's Being and God's consciousness is the transcendent aspect.
 
Old 01-15-2018, 01:58 PM
 
Location: Pacific 🌉 °N, 🌄°W
11,761 posts, read 7,221,038 times
Reputation: 7528
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
Sounds like jealousy to me.
Again only your unsubstantiated opinion.
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