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You're trying to fudge the issue. The point is not whether the writers thought it was true (but were mistaken) reported what was true (badly) wrote knowing fiction, or didn't care so long as it sounded convincing (My money's going on that one).
It is whether we should take those stories as true just because the writing of them took a lot of effort, expensive parchment and distilled squid ink at ten shekels an ounce to write with.
The answer is: no, we can not. We have to use other parameters than what a pain it was to write the stuff, in assessing whether to accord it credibility and, if so, how much.
You miss the point, Arq. They were reporting what they thought was true because of how they interpreted the world within their context and perceptions.
Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane talks to his god (by rewriting a passage from Jonah ). The authors of the gospels could not have known what was said. They were not reporting what they thought was true, they was inventing a story to sell a theological point.
There are so many indicators such as this in the gospels and Acts that tell us they are fictional accounts that to argue they are not fiction means you are arguing about something you are ignorant of.
From Jonah? Ref please? That is a useful clue. The quote from Psalms that we get on the cross (Matthew and Mark) is improbable under the circumstances and we don't get it in Luke or John. They add their own remarks to a death which was probably originally with just a loud cry.
The Churches of course wove that together into a sequence of 'Seven Last Words'. However the 'agony in the garden' has long been seen by those pesky Bible -critics as something screaming stuff being made up.
From Jonah? Ref please? That is a useful clue. The quote from Psalms that we get on the cross (Matthew and Mark) is improbable under the circumstances and we don't get it in Luke or John. They add their own remarks to a death which was probably originally with just a loud cry.
The Churches of course wove that together into a sequence of 'Seven Last Words'. However the 'agony in the garden' has long been seen by those pesky Bible -critics as something screaming stuff being made up.
Jesus and Jonah are deeply troubled; deeply griefed; griefed to the point of death (a strange saying found in both Mark and the Septuagint version of Jonah); both pray to God for help.
Mark 14:34: And he said to them, "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch", which is too close to the Septuagint version of Jonah 4:9 to be a coincidence.
Jesus waking the disciples could be referencing Jonah 1:6
Before I check the Septuagint I checked Jonah 4 in the Qumran scrolls as I learned that they sometimes agree with the Septuagint.
9 God said to Jonah, “Is it right for you to be angry about the vine?”
He said, “I am right to be angry, even to death.”
This is what is in my Bible.
The Septuagint is translated: Jonas 4.9 "And God said to Jonas, Art thou very much grieved for the gourd? And he said, I am very much grieved, even to death."
I think that you are probably right. Though the situation is nothing to do with Jonah grieving for the withered vine, the passage - tweaked a bit - looks like it has been lifted from OT text, just as Mark and Matthew (their source) lifted a quote from Psalms to put into Jesus' mouth on the cross. The only matter remaining is whether any of the other gospels have it -or anything like.
Mathew has (in my Bible) "My soul is very sorrowful, even unto death" Luke - just as with the 'forsaken' quote of Matthew and Mark, does not have it. John of course has nothing but Jesus and his disciples going to the garden of Gethsemane and waiting there to be betrayed.
I was half prepared for the 'sorrowful/troubled' quote to be common to all the synoptics, but it is in fact consistent with Matthew and Mark using a version of the Synoptic gospel with these common additions, in this case borrowed quotes from the Torah added in to the Synoptic gospel which explains why Jesus was there at all. Not too convincingly. And John has none of this Synoptic agony in the garden - stuff.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 11-20-2018 at 08:34 AM..
Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane talks to his god (by rewriting a passage from Jonah ). The authors of the gospels could not have known what was said. They were not reporting what they thought was true, they was inventing a story to sell a theological point.
There are so many indicators such as this in the gospels and Acts that tell us they are fictional accounts that to argue they are not fiction means you are arguing about something you are ignorant of.
Your unwarranted certainty about your preferred interpretation is just annoying. There is no reason your preferred interpretation should be accepted over mine. True fiction is NOT even supposed to be considered true and that does NOT characterize these writings despite ample figurative speech, idioms, metaphors, hyperbole, and exaggerations to spice up and add importance to the narratives. They are clearly expected to be treated as recordings of true events as understood by its writers, NOT as fiction, and they have been treated as such for millennia.
To be honest I have no interest in how a text was treated in the past - or for how long. The question is how should we treat it _now_ and on what basis.
And basically every time you are asked you can offer nothing _but_ your "preferred interpretation" as to why we should treat the stories and events as anything but fiction. There simply is no evidence many of the events described ever actually occurred.
same, I am only here anymore so that people know we don't deny anything and everything in science because of how we feel about religion. The universe doesn't care. Nor do i actually.
Your unwarranted certainty about your preferred interpretation is just annoying. There is no reason your preferred interpretation should be accepted over mine. True fiction is NOT even supposed to be considered true and that does NOT characterize these writings despite ample figurative speech, idioms, metaphors, hyperbole, and exaggerations to spice up and add importance to the narratives. They are clearly expected to be treated as recordings of true events as understood by its writers, NOT as fiction, and they have been treated as such for millennia.
They have been - but the evidence is strong - even compelling, I'd arge - that fiction is what they are (Though I do think there is a factual bare bones).
As an analogy I would cite the Facts about Mrs Leonowens, employed by Rama IV as English teacher. There is a factual story there. It went through several redactions, first her own memoirs (two vols I recall) very much reflecting her own opinions, though useful.
Then 'Anna and the King of Siam' pretty much rewriting the whole story as a sort of Siamese "Uncle Tom's Cabin" (1). That was turned into a Film, a Musical and musical film which made this lie about the torture and execution of two Star -crossed lovers.
Finally the recent redaction which still has that 'Tup Tin' lie made the centre of a beautifully made Hollywood romp even further from the fact than 'The king and I'.
It's a very good illustration of fabrication by writers with an Agenda seriously distorting the story and that is what happened with the Jesus story. If you haven't accepted that i have a least a case for that, you either don't read or remember my posts, or you don't care.
(1) Margaret Landon, 1944. It was that book (I recall from reading both accounts) that invented the 'story of the slave, Tup Tin'.
From 1939 -1948, there was to -and fro of the name, Siam or Thaiiand, when it became permanently 'Thailand' after 1948.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 11-26-2018 at 01:44 AM..
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). The authors of the gospels could not have known what was said. They were not reporting what they thought was true, they was inventing a story to sell a theological point.
