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It's just like denial of evolution - or round earth. The evidence is there. But just make up stuff -perhaps this, perhaps that, without even wondering whether it works. And the remarkable faith in faith itself. I doesn't matter if Jesus never existed or even Yahweh never existed. It's all true on Faith, nevertheless.
I won't say I don't understand. I can understand all right just as I an understand a habitual alcoholic, even if I'm not one myself. Though the lush probably can't understand why telling me how great it is to be pie -eyed most of the time isn't going to impress me very much.
Likely they probably did, something as earth shattering as that, but the RCC with it's penchant for collecting and filing ancient writings instead of making them known to the world, probably filed it away in a dark catacomb under, "miscellaneous". Peace
Yes the "Darkest Africa" ploy. If the argument requires evidence that isn't there, claim that it is, but the Vatican is hiding it(x). Just as the government is covering up that the Moon landings never happened, the twin towers was set up by the government, or he earth is really flat.
Well, I do the same thing myself wih "Q' document and the Mark/Matthew material, and a nagging suspicion that the insurgency of Jesus Barabbas (bloodily put down by Pilate) was known to Luke (13.1) but was suppressed by he Church. But to be honest, I don't believe such a complete cover -up could work.
Why there ISN'T an extra Biblical account of the doings of either Jesus or Barrabbas (1) in the histories. SOMETHING ought to be there. I'd almost agree with Raffs (2) that the whole thing is made up with an invented Pauline messiah figure, but I don' believe that for a second. There is a real Paul, real Cephas and James, and a real Jesus, Galilee, crucifixion and a donkey -ride and real temple dus up , too - and for all I know, a real empty tomb. The evidence just does not support total invention.
(1) Tacitus -he nearest thing to extra -Biblical attestation - merely says Pilate executed jesus, on whom the Christan cu (as it was at the time) was based. Few unbelievers woutd gave a problem wih that.
(2) for a big enough bribe
(x) in the 70's the Soviet Union was "Darkest Africa" . A string of nuts with dire threats of planet -destroying Lazers, Doom Prophecies and a Mysterious scroll that would destroy Christianity if it became known , claimed that it is knowledge being hidden by the Soviets, but through some unclear process believing it's true without evidence to hand would somehow avert the catastrophe....
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 05-31-2017 at 06:25 AM..
You have no idea then that the RCC doctrines and mainstream bible believing Christianity are not the same thing? Peace
Uterly irrelevant, old fellow. If the RCC had extra biblical proof that the Gospel story was true, not only would it have leaked out, it would be global textbook page 1 material. And that it would benefit the Jesus -claims of Protestantism would bother them in the least.
Behold, I reveal unto you a Truth. Learn and master it. In the face of the REAL adversary, the threat of doubt, skepticism and disbelief, Christians, Muslims and Jews will stand together, shoulder to shoulder. Sectarianism is totally and utterly forgotten.
Cor...that Pecan-blueberry confection sure makes my watery starch -gruel sound bad, even when it is warmed up.
First if it it wasn't clear, the three circumstantial resurrection accounts (after the discovery of the empty tomb) contradict so much that they cannot be taken as true. That means that you can't quote them (let alone Acts) to me as evidence of anything but gospel fabrication. That means the Cleophas event is a tall story made up to shift the scene from Jerusalem so that Jesus can "appear to Simon" as Luke read in Paul's letter, so he tried to fiddle the event into the resurrection story without having to describe this amazing event Jesus appearing to Simon - and nobody else mentions it either. It is just one of the larger nails in a whole fistful of them ino the coffin of Lucan credibility from the nativity to the hammock of wrigglies let down from heaven as a light snack that earn for the author the epithet 'Luke the Liar".
I have also pointed out that pulling together Paul's autobiographical remarks, whenever it was, Paul's seeing Jesus was rather a belated mental vision, such as that came to Peter, then the twelve, then 500 together, and finally Paul, where it told him exactly what he wanted to hear. That Gentiles could share being saved as much as the Jews, and they didn't have to observe the law - just Faith in Jesus as the risen messiah would do
He says he got that from no man. You bet he didn't. You can glean that Paul was called to order by James in Jerusalem and from then on he is increasingly deprecating about "These super apostles' and threatening with cursing anyone who teaches a 'Gospel different to any that he teaches".
So, this being the context of his vision, the Damascus experience by Luke, a demonstrable fabricator of tales, is not to be trusted. Paul is cagey about his conversion, so not setting out a Damascus -road affliction and conversion (so much for not interfering with free will, eh?) doesn't prove it didn't happen, bu for me Paul's Other indications and Luke's untrustworthiness means that I trust Acts about as much as I trust the Acts of Pilate.
While you can believe what you like, through a metaphorical transformation into a spiritual message, at any rate, to me, I only care about whether the story is true or not. Totally, substantially, in part, mostly not true or a total crock. And while I do think more than you might suppose me to that a good deal is true, I am convinced that the resurrection accounts plus Acts can be tossed entirely in the credibility bin.
The empty tomb is the very last thing that deserves any credibility. On that hinges the bodily resurrection - claim. That's why it's crucial, and I can't shake the idea that the believers know this, deep down inside, and that's why it is crucial. They know, deep down inside that the resurrection stories do not work.
So when it comes to extracting feelgood faith - buzzwords like "light' and "Fire" which to me are really like hypnosis signals to blank the mind when faced with evidence that the faith is based on fallacy, I can only suggest...."Peace".
Not ignoring you, but gonna have to take the time to reread all 3 accounts so I see what it is you're trying to show me.
As for Paul, I'll just say for the moment here, I think he's highly misunderstood by all sides of the table. Will pick this and other travesties of justice, up later. Peace
Yes the "Darkest Africa" ploy. If the argument requires evidence that isn't there, claim that it is, but the Vatican is hiding it(x). Just as the government is covering up that the Moon landings never happened, the twin towers was set up by the government, or he earth is really flat.
Well, I do the same thing myself wih "Q' document and the Mark/Matthew material, and a nagging suspicion that the insurgency of Jesus Barabbas (bloodily put down by Pilate) was known to Luke (13.1) but was suppressed by he Church. But to be honest, I don't believe such a complete cover -up could work.
Why there ISN'T an extra Biblical account of the doings of either Jesus or Barrabbas (1) in the histories. SOMETHING ought to be there. I'd almost agree with Raffs (2) that the whole thing is made up with an invented Pauline messiah figure, but I don' believe that for a second. There is a real Paul, real Cephas and James, and a real Jesus, Galilee, crucifixion and a donkey -ride and real temple dus up , too - and for all I know, a real empty tomb. The evidence just does not support total invention.
(1) Tacitus -he nearest thing to extra -Biblical attestation - merely says Pilate executed jesus, on whom the Christan cu (as it was at the time) was based. Few unbelievers woutd gave a problem wih that.
(2) for a big enough bribe
(x) in the 70's the Soviet Union was "Darkest Africa" . A string of nuts with dire threats of planet -destroying Lazers, Doom Prophecies and a Mysterious scroll that would destroy Christianity if it became known , claimed that it is knowledge being hidden by the Soviets, but through some unclear process believing it's true without evidence to hand would somehow avert the catastrophe....
It was off topic of a sort, I know, but sometimes different things strike me from a post than what is expected. This was one of those times. I do think regardless of the topic at hand, that the RCC has an abundance of materials they should have made public eons ago, and just the fact THEY have them and no one else does, is suspect in and of itself to me.
Just WHAT that might be, is anybody's guess, literally. But I DO think, in all likelihood there probably is a really better than average chance that they have something they grabbed ahold of while the "ink was still wet" nearly. Just speaks of the carnal nature of man to me in general, and the nature of tightly controlled religion in general, that they would. That's all. Peace
Uterly irrelevant, old fellow. If the RCC had extra biblical proof that the Gospel story was true, not only would it have leaked out, it would be global textbook page 1 material. And that it would benefit the Jesus -claims of Protestantism would bother them in the least.
Behold, I reveal unto you a Truth. Learn and master it. In the face of the REAL adversary, the threat of doubt, skepticism and disbelief, Christians, Muslims and Jews will stand together, shoulder to shoulder. Sectarianism is totally and utterly forgotten.
I just can't agree for the simple reason their track record of subjugating anything that sets their caps to spinning, real or imagined, and using any means necessary to do it, does not make me lean towards extending them any benefit of the doubt in that area. Although it is irrelevant to our "argument" at hand, I agree. I just sidestepped a bit with a sort of personal reflection on the probable location of any spurious or real, "missing" texts, is all. The fact I drug you along, only means I wanted company on the trip. Next time I'll bring fruit bread. I insist you bring the butter. Carry on...
Ok, that would be no, BUT that doesn't mean I still don't think they have "archived" things they have no business withholding. Know what I mean, Jellybean? Lighten up a little, will ya? Peace
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Peace
, claimed that it is knowledge being hidden by the Soviets, but through some unclear process believing it's true without evidence to hand would somehow avert the catastrophe....
Peace
