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Old 06-22-2017, 04:28 PM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,083 posts, read 20,582,163 times
Reputation: 5927

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Troglodyte74 View Post
It appears to me that you and several others have missed the point. (BTW, my wife is Russian and I do speak Russian.) The issue is not whether humanity is divided into a hierarchy. That is indeed obvious. The issue is not whether various groups think they are the elites. They obviously do. The question is, what if this is actually, ontologically, the reality - 97% of people actually are worthless in the most fundamental, cosmic sense? The reality we inhabit actually was created for the spiritual evolution of only a tiny percentage of humanity, the true elites? Calvinistic Christianity does not attempt to place a percentage on the predestined elect, and I'm not promoting Calvinism, merely raising the issue: What if it were true that 97% of humans were, in reality, no more important than cockroaches?

I often get the feeling - and it is one reason I do not bother to engage here much - that a large number of posters really do not bother to read very carefully before responding.
I don't think that's actually the point. It's not even 'what if 3% were worth more than cockroaches?' Though you might say what you thought it would be getting them. The real point is whether you have any good reason to suppose 3% really are worth more than the others and why. Because we have already had human hierarchies, which is understandable, but also hints at 'spiritual' hierarchies, the worth of which is very much open to question
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
That's the question I'm asking. Is it? Is your life worth more than mine? Or mine worth more than your's?
Insofar as the cosmos is concerned, no. so far as we know. Speaking in human terms, who knows? Is Trouts worth more than Einstein? I doubt he'd claim so. Worth more than you? How could he tell? I don't see where such questions get us.
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
How many time do I have to tell you to pay attention to what is actually SAID instead of inserting your prejudices before the idea takes root?
I believe that I have asked you a couple of times to explain what I am not getting. Just telling me to pay attention is beginning to sound as though you are trying to score points with nothing to say.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 06-22-2017 at 04:40 PM..
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Old 06-22-2017, 04:53 PM
 
Location: minnesota
15,803 posts, read 6,261,660 times
Reputation: 5044
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
STILL playing the "hippy dippy" card? When are you going to pay attention and join us in the real world?
What is the real world Nate?
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Old 06-22-2017, 04:54 PM
 
Location: minnesota
15,803 posts, read 6,261,660 times
Reputation: 5044
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
That's the question I'm asking. Is it? Is your life worth more than mine? Or mine worth more than your's?
I don't believe my life is worth more than yours. I also don't believe it's worth any less.
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Old 06-22-2017, 06:14 PM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
31,374 posts, read 20,091,717 times
Reputation: 14069
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
That's the question I'm asking. Is it? Is your life worth more than mine? Or mine worth more than your's?
You actually phrased it as a statement:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
If one does not have a belief in God, then all we are is a cosmic accident. The chemicals making up my body are no more worthy than anyone else's. So why does it matter?
You have a belief in God, therefore you are not a cosmic accident, right?

I don't believe in your God, therefore I am a cosmic accident, right?

The inference is pretty clear: You are a special snowflake blessed by the cosmos.

And I am Satan's spawn.

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Old 06-22-2017, 09:27 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 10,876,103 times
Reputation: 1871
Quote:
Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8 View Post
What is the real world Nate?
In this case, the real world is that actually practicing that concern for others is no walk in the park with roses blooming on all sides. It can be hard work and painful. I nor any liberal I know of has ever expressed the idea that our "afterlife" is going to be a blissful bed of roses. In fact, I hope to be of some use to those who have not yet come to the recognition that love IS the best way of relating to God and man. I tend to think that reincarnation might not be a bad system.
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Old 06-22-2017, 10:10 PM
 
301 posts, read 294,618 times
Reputation: 825
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troglodyte74 View Post
It appears to me that you and several others have missed the point. (BTW, my wife is Russian and I do speak Russian.) The issue is not whether humanity is divided into a hierarchy. That is indeed obvious. The issue is not whether various groups think they are the elites. They obviously do. The question is, what if this is actually, ontologically, the reality - 97% of people actually are worthless in the most fundamental, cosmic sense? The reality we inhabit actually was created for the spiritual evolution of only a tiny percentage of humanity, the true elites? Calvinistic Christianity does not attempt to place a percentage on the predestined elect, and I'm not promoting Calvinism, merely raising the issue: What if it were true that 97% of humans were, in reality, no more important than cockroaches?

I often get the feeling - and it is one reason I do not bother to engage here much - that a large number of posters really do not bother to read very carefully before responding.
The reason no one is listening is because it it pure refutable rubbish. Yes, humanity is divided. But what is the measure of someone's worth. Is it strictly what I can buy, because even in the poorest places and poorest people in the world today can buy things that 100 years ago could not and were not even imagined 1000 years ago. Is it medicine, because something like Tuberculosis can be cured with simple antibiotics today where 100 years ago it was basically a death sentence. Is it happiness? For how divided humanity is today, I have seen poor families that were happier together than many self absorbed narcissistic rich. In fact, in many "happiness" studies, the elite have no where nearly been labeled the happiest. They work long hours when they don't have to. They stress over wealth when they have enough to live a dozen lifetimes without worry. Is it intelligence. No. The greatest mind of our generation had to flee Germany due to his background. Is it procreation. You have no idea. Rich elite have children with learning disabilities. Two insignificant people under your definition may create the next Einstein.

I could go on and on. Bottom line is you have to label your metric of what is an elite.

And even if you could find a metric that you believed worthy. We are just one insignificant planet around an insignificant star, in one of 100 billion or more galaxies, each with over 100 billion stars. Everyone you know of has been born here and will die here (or close to here). And even if mankind one day reaches other stars they will die as our universe will one day die a cold entropic heat death. The most significant person on this little blue planet is more insignificant to the universe that the most insignificant single celled organism is to us. Get over yourself. We are nothing special to the universe.
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Old 06-22-2017, 11:07 PM
 
63,566 posts, read 39,855,129 times
Reputation: 7819
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
STILL playing the "hippy dippy" card? When are you going to pay attention and join us in the real world?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
Which "real world" are you speaking of? It wouldn't be the one in which hordes of dead people come up out of their graves and wander about, and in which one such reanimated corpse flies off up into the sky and disappears into the clouds by any chance... would it? Just clarifying.
Without implying that I speak for Nate, I do know that NONE of that nonsense is part of Nate's or my view.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
I am not stupid, and I have particular experience in translating some of the the most incomprehensible posts into something meaningful.
But I cannot get what you mean by hippy - dippy or the 'Real world'. Mystic thinks my mindset is too concrete.
The only thing I can think of is appeal to instinctive fear of death - 'Dodge the bullet fallacy'. Yes, if you don't have time to think, instinct will drive you to survive. Blame evolution.
But we do have time to think and we know that death appears on all valid evidence to be it, and not so bad when you think of what the alternatives actually look like after the first hundred trillion years - and that's only the start.
So for everyone else's benefit, what is it I am missing?
We shall see. A good response will be treated with respect. anything from crickets to "I'm not here to educate you" avoidance ...well, those are not possible credible options for our pal Nate now.
Hippy dippy implies that we see the world simplistically and idealistically as a naive' "just love everyone and everything will be wonderful" automatically meme. I think he has given a clear explanation below, though I am not sanguine about any reincarnation meme.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
If I had ever indicated that such was part of my belief system you might be making sense. You've read and responded to posts of mine, pop your head loose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
How many time do I have to tell you to pay attention to what is actually SAID instead of inserting your prejudices before the idea takes root?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
In this case, the real world is that actually practicing that concern for others is no walk in the park with roses blooming on all sides. It can be hard work and painful. I nor any liberal I know of has ever expressed the idea that our "afterlife" is going to be a blissful bed of roses. In fact, I hope to be of some use to those who have not yet come to the recognition that love IS the best way of relating to God and man. I tend to think that reincarnation might not be a bad system.
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Old 06-23-2017, 03:33 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,083 posts, read 20,582,163 times
Reputation: 5927
Thanks for the explanation. But now I am totally at a loss. "Love" in the Hippy-dippy sense is so unhelpful a rationale in the real world that I prefer to think Concrete. So to be slammed for Hippy -dippy thinking by someone who apparently does and then be told I'm not paying attention now suggests to me not someone being crafty, but someone who is just naysaying me with little regard to a coherent argument.

Or maybe your explanation wasn't what he would say. In which case I still await HIS explanation of what I missed.
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Old 06-23-2017, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 10,876,103 times
Reputation: 1871
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Thanks for the explanation. But now I am totally at a loss. "Love" in the Hippy-dippy sense is so unhelpful a rationale in the real world that I prefer to think Concrete. So to be slammed for Hippy -dippy thinking by someone who apparently does and then be told I'm not paying attention now suggests to me not someone being crafty, but someone who is just naysaying me with little regard to a coherent argument.

Or maybe your explanation wasn't what he would say. In which case I still await HIS explanation of what I missed.
So pay attention to the explanation I have given for what "love" or "agape" IS I only explain it or refer to a short description about every 10 posts so it is not possible you MISSED it....You just don't pay any attention to it or give it any thought whatsoever. You just fall back on your "hippy dippy" concept because that is what supports your prejudice.
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Old 06-23-2017, 10:29 AM
 
18,926 posts, read 6,927,349 times
Reputation: 3557
Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutDude View Post
You actually phrased it as a statement:


You have a belief in God, therefore you are not a cosmic accident, right?

I don't believe in your God, therefore I am a cosmic accident, right?

The inference is pretty clear: You are a special snowflake blessed by the cosmos.

And I am Satan's spawn.

Actually, whether you believe in God or not, your life does matter. You are no more or less valuable to God than any person on earth.
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