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In my first thread on this topic, bryan85 made a point that I think should be separated out and addressed:
Quote:
I am a "black and white" thinker when it comes to spiritual matters. There are 2 spirits in our world - one good (God), and the other evil (Satan). None of us has any claim to be "spiritual" on our own. We are influenced by one spirit or the other. Many people are confused, so they look to spiritual "concepts" - such as one with the earth, or we are all part of one great spirit. This is nonsense, but it's easier to believe and practice than obedience and loyalty to God. Man by nature (apart from God's influence) will always take the path of least resistance and do what's easiest and "acceptable" to his culture. Being "spiritual" in today's culture is acceptable - being a Christian is not. I'm sure I'll catch hell from liberals for my opinion, but I'm used to it.
Somewhat related to this were responses taking issue with my suggestion that an atheist might qualify as "spiritual" even though the large majority of atheists would deny the existence of any sort of spiritual realm.
What I was suggesting in my first thread was that anyone who has sincerely attempted to wrestle with the big metaphysical questions, as opposed to ignoring them, can legitimately claim the title of "spiritual." If an atheist has sincerely wrestled with the big questions, then by definition he or she has given due consideration to the possible existence of God and/or a spiritual realm. (Most atheists have not done this, of course, but neither have a great many people who claim to be believers.) The point of my first thread was simply that I believe the definition of spirituality is "sincerely wrestling with the big metaphysical questions," even if one ultimately ends up denying the existence of a spiritual realm.
My definition should not be understood as suggesting that all spiritualties are equally valid. It appears to me that some people mistakenly thought I was suggesting this. Which brings me to bryan85's post.
Like bryan85, I am a Christian. Like bryan85, I do see the world in black and white (Christian and non-Christian) terms. Like bryan85, I do believe humanity is subject to supernatural influences, both godly and evil. I believe the non-Christian spiritualties are simply wrong. These are the conclusions at which I have arrived after a long spiritual quest.
I agree with bryan85 that, when we embark on a quest, many of the spiritual paths that lead away from Christianity are going to be more attractive to our fallen human natures than is Christianity and that the forces of supernatural evil delight in steering us in this direction. It takes great discernment - and, Christians believe, an openness to the Holy Spirit - to find what Christians believe to be the true path.
Only those who wrestle with the big metaphysical questions are ever going to arrive at any form of spirituality, Christian or otherwise. Those who do not wrestle with them are doomed to live at the level of animals. It is my belief that the more one wrestles with the questions, the more likely one is to eventually find his or her way to Christianity. In my opinion, Christianity simply has the greatest explanatory power. Hence, I encourage anyone, even someone who is now a rabid atheist, to continue the quest because it is far more likely to lead to Christianity than no quest at all.
I also suggested in my first thread that many professed Christians, Muslims and other believers do not qualify as spiritual because they have never wrestled with the big questions but have simply landed where they have as the result of parental indoctrination or other emotional, psychological or social factors. This should not be understood as suggesting that I don't think such Christians are saved.
I was born again as a junior in college. Was I saved at that point? Yes, I believe I was - and I have evidence, meaningful only to me, that I indeed was. Was I spiritual at that point? No. I had found the answer without knowing the questions - but I had found the answer.
The beauty of Christianity is that to be saved requires nothing more than a sincere acknowledgment of your fallen state, a sincere acknowledgment of your need for God's forgiveness, sincere repentance, and a grateful acceptance of what God is offering through His atoning sacrifice. This is why the Bible repeatedly makes the point that worldly wisdom is not required to enter the kingdom of God and may even be an impediment. (But Christianity does require at least this, which is why the phony "I'm OK, you're OK" version I call Christianity Lite is not Christianity at all.)
When I then wrestled with the big questions over a period of decades, my quest often took me very far indeed from Christianity - but never, I am confident, from God's providential protection. When I finally realized that Christianity not only provided answers in the limited sense in which I had understood it when I was born again as a 20-year-old but also provided the best answers to the big metaphysical questions, I had then arrived at a point of a genuine Christian spirituality. I knew why Christianity was "better" than atheism, Buddhism, Hinduism or any other form of spirituality.
In my first thread on this topic, bryan85 made a point that I think should be separated out and addressed:
Somewhat related to this were responses taking issue with my suggestion that an atheist might qualify as "spiritual" even though the large majority of atheists would deny the existence of any sort of spiritual realm.
What I was suggesting in my first thread was that anyone who has sincerely attempted to wrestle with the big metaphysical questions, as opposed to ignoring them, can legitimately claim the title of "spiritual." If an atheist has sincerely wrestled with the big questions, then by definition he or she has given due consideration to the possible existence of God and/or a spiritual realm. (Most atheists have not done this, of course, but neither have a great many people who claim to be believers.) The point of my first thread was simply that I believe the definition of spirituality is "sincerely wrestling with the big metaphysical questions," even if one ultimately ends up denying the existence of a spiritual realm.
My definition should not be understood as suggesting that all spiritualties are equally valid. It appears to me that some people mistakenly thought I was suggesting this. Which brings me to bryan85's post.
Like bryan85, I am a Christian. Like bryan85, I do see the world in black and white (Christian and non-Christian) terms. Like bryan85, I do believe humanity is subject to supernatural influences, both godly and evil. I believe the non-Christian spiritualties are simply wrong. These are the conclusions at which I have arrived after a long spiritual quest.
I agree with bryan85 that, when we embark on a quest, many of the spiritual paths that lead away from Christianity are going to be more attractive to our fallen human natures than is Christianity and that the forces of supernatural evil delight in steering us in this direction. It takes great discernment - and, Christians believe, an openness to the Holy Spirit - to find what Christians believe to be the true path.
Only those who wrestle with the big metaphysical questions are ever going to arrive at any form of spirituality, Christian or otherwise. Those who do not wrestle with them are doomed to live at the level of animals. It is my belief that the more one wrestles with the questions, the more likely one is to eventually find his or her way to Christianity. In my opinion, Christianity simply has the greatest explanatory power. Hence, I encourage anyone, even someone who is now a rabid atheist, to continue the quest because it is far more likely to lead to Christianity than no quest at all.
I also suggested in my first thread that many professed Christians, Muslims and other believers do not qualify as spiritual because they have never wrestled with the big questions but have simply landed where they have as the result of parental indoctrination or other emotional, psychological or social factors. This should not be understood as suggesting that I don't think such Christians are saved.
I was born again as a junior in college. Was I saved at that point? Yes, I believe I was - and I have evidence, meaningful only to me, that I indeed was. Was I spiritual at that point? No. I had found the answer without knowing the questions - but I had found the answer.
The beauty of Christianity is that to be saved requires nothing more than a sincere acknowledgment of your fallen state, a sincere acknowledgment of your need for God's forgiveness, sincere repentance, and a grateful acceptance of what God is offering through His atoning sacrifice. This is why the Bible repeatedly makes the point that worldly wisdom is not required to enter the kingdom of God and may even be an impediment. (But Christianity does require at least this, which is why the phony "I'm OK, you're OK" version I call Christianity Lite is not Christianity at all.)
When I then wrestled with the big questions over a period of decades, my quest often took me very far indeed from Christianity - but never, I am confident, from God's providential protection. When I finally realized that Christianity not only provided answers in the limited sense in which I had understood it when I was born again as a 20-year-old but also provided the best answers to the big metaphysical questions, I had then arrived at a point of a genuine Christian spirituality. I knew why Christianity was "better" than atheism, Buddhism, Hinduism or any other form of spirituality.
Thanks, I know I tend to be blunt, and not "soft and cuddly". It took me 38 years and a lot of pain (that I caused, and received) before I would commit to Jesus Christ. I truly believe that for most adults, it takes a lot of pain in order to admit they need Jesus to be in charge of their life. Pride (unwillingness to admit being wrong, as well as NOT being willing to repent) is what keeps most people from committing to Christ.
Thanks, I know I tend to be blunt, and not "soft and cuddly". It took me 38 years and a lot of pain (that I caused, and received) before I would commit to Jesus Christ. I truly believe that for most adults, it takes a lot of pain in order to admit they need Jesus to be in charge of their life. Pride (unwillingness to admit being wrong, as well as NOT being willing to repent) is what keeps most people from committing to Christ.
I completely disagree with the bolded.
Common sense accounts for most people not committing to Christ.
...Somewhat related to this were responses taking issue with my suggestion that an atheist might qualify as "spiritual" even though the large majority of atheists would deny the existence of any sort of spiritual realm.
What I was suggesting in my first thread was that anyone who has sincerely attempted to wrestle with the big metaphysical questions, as opposed to ignoring them, can legitimately claim the title of "spiritual." If an atheist has sincerely wrestled with the big questions, then by definition he or she has given due consideration to the possible existence of God and/or a spiritual realm. (Most atheists have not done this, of course, but neither have a great many people who claim to be believers.) The point of my first thread was simply that I believe the definition of spirituality is "sincerely wrestling with the big metaphysical questions," even if one ultimately ends up denying the existence of a spiritual realm.
....
thinking about questions doesn't make you spiritual.
it just means you think about stuff.
if someone denies that spirit exists, then no they are not spiritual.
it's like saying I talked about going to medical school, therefore I am a doctor.
Even though you mentioned atheists, I think maybe I pushed the atheist nose into too many threads that weren't really for atheists. But I get what you mean by atheists being "Spiritual". It's a word that covers an awful lot of meanings. Art, social interaction, ethics. The only time it really parts company is when we start to look at funny stuff the brain does and await research while Others shout us down as close -minded materialists and we ought to accept the existence of an invisible world that nobody knows about other than it is for sure real.
That the only aspect of "Spiritual" we atheists really have to say we are no part of.
well, maybe I should be clearer. There is no supernatural. But we are part of a more complex system that is "life". At least in our region of space. That claim is empirical at this point. what non science people believe is of no concern to how the universe works.
The emotions one has to that particular knowledge is not my area. I only do how the universe works. Some people have more of an emotional connection to the system around us than I do and others have more of an emotional connection to denying that empirical information than I do. It doesn't make any take more or less right unless they deny observations to maintain the belief.
for us middle of the roaders we can just be happy we know more about the universe than we did 20 years ago. Thats kind of cool to me.
OK, OK. I grant it to you.
You convinced yourself.
Amen.
Maybe it's time to now follow the conviction? Live life, you know. You got your afterlife security. Live a little. Now.
You do good posts. Wish I was that eloquent. But they start dripping of pride.
What the OP and Bryan are doing was taught to me by my Christian sect as well. I've been trying really hard to undo that conditioning. I was doing pretty good then the election hit Still have some work to do. It's odd to me that you guys know you are doing it and are fine with it.
Splitting (also called black-and-white thinking or all-or-nothing thinking) is the failure in a person's thinking to bring together the dichotomy of both positive and negative qualities of the self and others into a cohesive, realistic whole. It is a common defense mechanism used by many people.[1] The individual tends to think in extremes (i.e., an individual's actions and motivations are all good or all bad with no middle ground). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_(psychology)
I guess the whole ultimate good God vs the ultimate evil Satan sets the stage.
What the OP and Bryan are doing was taught to me by my Christian sect as well. I've been trying really hard to undo that conditioning. I was doing pretty good then the election hit Still have some work to do. It's odd to me that you guys know you are doing it and are fine with it.
Splitting (also called black-and-white thinking or all-or-nothing thinking) is the failure in a person's thinking to bring together the dichotomy of both positive and negative qualities of the self and others into a cohesive, realistic whole. It is a common defense mechanism used by many people.[1] The individual tends to think in extremes (i.e., an individual's actions and motivations are all good or all bad with no middle ground). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_(psychology)
I guess the whole ultimate good God vs the ultimate evil Satan sets the stage.
yuppers.
fundamental-think. To me, they look an awful like early teen brains. There are four major reasons why a brain does grow up.
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Spirichule...me??
shout us down as close -minded materialists and we ought to accept the existence of an invisible world that nobody knows about other than it is for sure real. 
Still have some work to do. It's odd to me that you guys know you are doing it and are fine with it.