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Old 01-10-2019, 02:27 PM
 
38,099 posts, read 25,730,726 times
Reputation: 5903

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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
1. You start off in this post wrong to begin with. For some people in certain situations, yes, Christianity can be a positive psychological phenomenon. I know good people who are Christians, and I see the good things that they do. So pack up lie number one that we don't realize that there are positive aspects to Christianity.

2. However, I do not respect living a lie. It DOES matter, from a moral sense, whether you live your life based on reality or fiction. I remember almost perfectly the Christmas morning I confided to my aunt that, "I don't really believe in Santa Claus anymore". And she sat me down and said, "Let me tell you what Santa Claus really is. You're right, Santa Claus is not a real man. But I'll tell what Santa Claus really is. Santa Claus is that feeling you had when you gave Mrs. Smith [my teacher] that Christmas gift. Santa Claus is how you will feel inside this morning when you give grandma those bedroom slippers. Santa Claus is how I will feel when you open the very special gift I am giving you this year, and I see how happy it's going to make you. So Santa Claus is real...he's just not a real man". That kind of thinking is fine to describe moral good-doing to a little boy, but it's time to grow up and realize that there are intrinsic (and extrinsic) reasons for doing good things, and they don't require that a person be a Christian.<snip>
You seem to be dealing with a good deal of angst about labels and beliefs about God, Phet. The labels are not all that important but it is understandable because most people seem to think God is all about what you claim to believe. In reality, God is all about your state of mind. Being a Christian is about having the state of mind of Christ so in a very real sense your aunt was absolutely correct. Unfortunately, we are so used to thinking that our state of mind is a fleeting and amorphous thing without any substance within our reality. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is the most important "substance" within our specific individual reality.
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Old 01-13-2019, 08:34 PM
 
9,312 posts, read 12,189,459 times
Reputation: 3383
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You seem to be dealing with a good deal of angst about labels and beliefs about God, Phet. The labels are not all that important but it is understandable because most people seem to think God is all about what you claim to believe. In reality, God is all about your state of mind. Being a Christian is about having the state of mind of Christ so in a very real sense your aunt was absolutely correct. Unfortunately, we are so used to thinking that our state of mind is a fleeting and amorphous thing without any substance within our reality. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is the most important "substance" within our specific individual reality.
Yes. I think a person's view of God is affected by their state of mind, rather than the other way around. A healthy person has a healthy view of religion, in my opinion.
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Old 01-17-2019, 01:24 AM
 
3,589 posts, read 2,591,684 times
Reputation: 4270
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
It's not "insane" to say that humans understood about DNA before it was defined by science.
The issue is that he does not just claim they knew about the basic workings and function of DNA. After all one might intuit from mere observation as some people indeed did do before DNA was finally "discovered" that there was _some_ unit of information at work at some level.

No what he claims is that they had full understanding not just of DNA but it's double helix structure specifically. And not from intuition or observation or evidence. But from experiences had while taking drugs. And his evidence for the claim they had this knowledge of DNA was that they drew a lot of pictures of snakes. Which is a complete non-seq really.

So the "insane" comment is a little more nuanced than you are painting it in this response here. Though it is interesting you focus on this rather than the majority of my post replying to the actual main content of yours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
What atheists don't seem to want to acknowledge is that religion is a positive psychological phenomenon.
It is not that we do not want to acknowledge it. It is that you have offered nothing but pure assertion upon which to acknowledge it. A much different problem by far. You say "we can use scientific methods to prove that religion is a very positive thing" then my reply is - great - then let us know when you want to do that. You sure have not done so yet.

Saying we can use science - and actually using science - are two very massively different things. You do a lot of the former. None of the latter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You seem to be dealing with a good deal of angst about labels and beliefs about God, Phet. The labels are not all that important but it is understandable because most people seem to think God is all about what you claim to believe. In reality, God is all about your state of mind.
Then as usual - similar to your "god is just all of everything" rhetoric - you do nothing here but redefine "god" in terms of things we already have words for in order to make it as nebulous as possible and something you in no way have to commit to.

But while you moan about others having angst about specific beliefs about god - the reality is that once you pull the linguistic gymnastics in this way it is _you_ who then spring boards from that nonsense to very specific beliefs about god. Specifically about the after life - gods treatment and judgement of souls morally after death - and claims about the divinity of jesus as a god turned man.

So you can dodge committent to your own god beliefs by deriding others for concern over god beliefs. But a dodge is all it is.
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Old 01-17-2019, 04:34 AM
 
3,509 posts, read 2,383,341 times
Reputation: 509
Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus View Post
The issue is that he does not just claim they knew about the basic workings and function of DNA. After all one might intuit from mere observation as some people indeed did do before DNA was finally "discovered" that there was _some_ unit of information at work at some level.

No what he claims is that they had full understanding not just of DNA but it's double helix structure specifically. And not from intuition or observation or evidence. But from experiences had while taking drugs. And his evidence for the claim they had this knowledge of DNA was that they drew a lot of pictures of snakes. Which is a complete non-seq really.

So the "insane" comment is a little more nuanced than you are painting it in this response here. Though it is interesting you focus on this rather than the majority of my post replying to the actual main content of yours.



It is not that we do not want to acknowledge it. It is that you have offered nothing but pure assertion upon which to acknowledge it. A much different problem by far. You say "we can use scientific methods to prove that religion is a very positive thing" then my reply is - great - then let us know when you want to do that. You sure have not done so yet.

Saying we can use science - and actually using science - are two very massively different things. You do a lot of the former. None of the latter.



Then as usual - similar to your "god is just all of everything" rhetoric - you do nothing here but redefine "god" in terms of things we already have words for in order to make it as nebulous as possible and something you in no way have to commit to.

But while you moan about others having angst about specific beliefs about god - the reality is that once you pull the linguistic gymnastics in this way it is _you_ who then spring boards from that nonsense to very specific beliefs about god. Specifically about the after life - gods treatment and judgement of souls morally after death - and claims about the divinity of jesus as a god turned man.

So you can dodge committent to your own god beliefs by deriding others for concern over god beliefs. But a dodge is all it is.
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Old 01-17-2019, 05:22 AM
 
9,312 posts, read 12,189,459 times
Reputation: 3383
Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus View Post
The issue is that he does not just claim they knew about the basic workings and function of DNA. After all one might intuit from mere observation as some people indeed did do before DNA was finally "discovered" that there was _some_ unit of information at work at some level.

No what he claims is that they had full understanding not just of DNA but it's double helix structure specifically. And not from intuition or observation or evidence. But from experiences had while taking drugs. And his evidence for the claim they had this knowledge of DNA was that they drew a lot of pictures of snakes. Which is a complete non-seq really.

So the "insane" comment is a little more nuanced than you are painting it in this response here. Though it is interesting you focus on this rather than the majority of my post replying to the actual main content of yours.



It is not that we do not want to acknowledge it. It is that you have offered nothing but pure assertion upon which to acknowledge it. A much different problem by far. You say "we can use scientific methods to prove that religion is a very positive thing" then my reply is - great - then let us know when you want to do that. You sure have not done so yet.

Saying we can use science - and actually using science - are two very massively different things. You do a lot of the former. None of the latter.



Then as usual - similar to your "god is just all of everything" rhetoric - you do nothing here but redefine "god" in terms of things we already have words for in order to make it as nebulous as possible and something you in no way have to commit to.

But while you moan about others having angst about specific beliefs about god - the reality is that once you pull the linguistic gymnastics in this way it is _you_ who then spring boards from that nonsense to very specific beliefs about god. Specifically about the after life - gods treatment and judgement of souls morally after death - and claims about the divinity of jesus as a god turned man.

So you can dodge committent to your own god beliefs by deriding others for concern over god beliefs. But a dodge is all it is.
You have made a lot of assertions here, but given no real support. I disagree with everything you said.

We will just have to agree to disagree.
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Old 01-17-2019, 06:01 AM
 
Location: Germany
3,231 posts, read 581,766 times
Reputation: 531
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
You have made a lot of assertions here, but given no real support.
Irony overload would also be a good name for a band, no?
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Old 01-21-2019, 02:22 AM
 
3,589 posts, read 2,591,684 times
Reputation: 4270
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
You have made a lot of assertions here, but given no real support. I disagree with everything you said.
The difference is that when you make assertions I point out where and when you did it and ask you for the specific back up required.

When you do it you just screech "assertions" and then run away. What have I claimed specifically that you want back up for? Ask me, and I shall provide it!

See the difference?
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Old 01-21-2019, 08:12 AM
 
9,312 posts, read 12,189,459 times
Reputation: 3383
Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus View Post
The difference is that when you make assertions I point out where and when you did it and ask you for the specific back up required.

When you do it you just screech "assertions" and then run away. What have I claimed specifically that you want back up for? Ask me, and I shall provide it!

See the difference?
The difference I see is that you can't understand that people can have two completely different perspectives when presented with the same evidence. At least am acknowledging that you have your own perspective.
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Old 01-21-2019, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
19,896 posts, read 9,400,581 times
Reputation: 19068
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
You have made a lot of assertions here, but given no real support. I disagree with everything you said.

We will just have to agree to disagree.
How about using your own standard?

Take the post above. What "real support" does that post contain?
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Old 01-21-2019, 04:41 PM
 
9,312 posts, read 12,189,459 times
Reputation: 3383
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
How about using your own standard?

Take the post above. What "real support" does that post contain?
It wouldn't be enough for your biased perspective. So I'm not going to try to convince people who don't want to hear about it. These debates on this forum are meaningless anyway. No one listens to anyone they disagree with.
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