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5and that He appeared to Cephas and then to the Twelve. 6After that, He appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles.…
Also, most of His disciples scattered after He was crucified. They returned and created what we now call Christisnity. All because they saw the risen Christ.
Here's my question regarding your request, if you don't mind: Why does it matter to you?
And that is a genuine question. Is it because you've been told that if you do NOT believe it, there will be dire consequences? If so, does that make any sense to you whatsoever? Because IF that were true, and God really would punish people for eternity because they didn't believe something that cannot be proven (and I think you know full well that it can't), wouldn't such a God be the antithesis of any rational person's understanding of what is good, and wouldn't spending an ETERNITY "worshipping" such a God be torment in itself for you? I know it would for me.
So, can we safely discard that as a valid motivation for wanting to have someone establish the resurrection of Jesus as reasonable? It wouldn't serve the intended purpose of some Christians for us, regardless.
Your question cannot be proven to a non-believer like you or me one way or another. But, those who believe it have their own personal reasons for doing so. Do you begrudge them that?
I was raised Pentecostal but by age 13 I had reached the conclusion that Christianity and in fact all religions are far too silly to have any connection to anything valid. I didn't join anything. I was an atheist by definition at that point. That was in 1961, and at that point in time not only had I never met another atheist, it would be several years yet before I did meet another atheist. Quite naturally I suppose I was continuously called on to sustain my conclusions. As a result I have became quite good at it. So good in fact that relatively few Christians will take a stand against me for long.
So why have I come to a religious debate board to debate religion? Where would you suggest?
If my question cannot be proven to a non believer then reasons for believing these apparently silly claims are obviously pretty weak, revolving mainly around a lifetime of programming, unsupported faith, and abject gullibility. Should I begrudge people that?
When the religious right decided to use their numbers to politically impose their ancient superstitious beliefs on the rest of society they became fair game. The goal now among non believers is nothing less than the top to bottom dismantling of religious belief using no other tool than reason, logic and the actual facts. Non belief in this country has risen from about 5% before the turn of this century to just about 25% today. So it seems that headway is being made. And unless someone can actually come up with a valid reason to believe that a corpse actually came back to life and then flew away then belief in Christianity will continue to erode away. As did the belief in Odin, Zeus, etc.
Last edited by Tired of the Nonsense; 07-21-2017 at 04:31 PM..
I was raised Pentecostal but by age 13 I had reached the conclusion that Christianity and in fact all religions are far too silly to have any connection to anything valid. I didn't join anything. I was an atheist by definition at that point. That was in 1961, and at that point in time not only had I never met another atheist, it would be several years yet before I did meet another atheist. Quite naturally I suppose I was continuously called on to sustain my conclusions. As a result I have became quite good at it. So good in fact that relatively few Christians will take a stand against me for long.
So why have I come to a religious debate board to debate religion? Where would you suggest?
If my question cannot be proven to a non believer then your reasons for believing your various apparently silly claims are obviously pretty weak, revolving around your lifetime of programming, unsupported faith, and abject gullibility. Should I begrudge people that?
When the religious right decided to use their numbers to politically impose their ancient superstitious beliefs on the rest of society they became fair game. The goal now among non believers is nothing less than the top to bottom dismantling of religious belief using no other tool than reason, logic and the actual facts. Non belief in this country has risen from about 5% before the turn of this century to just about 25% today. So it seems that headway is being made. And unless someone can actually come up with a valid reason to believe that a corpse actually came back to life and then flew away then belief in Christianity will continue to erode away. So here is your chance to make a stand. Or not.
Did you actually read my post? I'm not a "believer".
5and that He appeared to Cephas and then to the Twelve. 6After that, He appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles.…
Also, most of His disciples scattered after He was crucified. They returned and created what we now call Christisnity. All because they saw the risen Christ.
The major objection to this passage is that 1 Cor was written circa 55 AD. According to the information provided in the Gospels, Jesus was executed circa 30 BC., a quarter of a century earlier. 1 Corinthians does not represent the testimony of 500 eye witness individuals. It represents the testimony of PAUL. But Paul did not convert to Christianity until some years after Jesus had been executed. Paul was not present for ANY of the ministry of Jesus, never met Jesus personally, and was not present for any of the claimed post crucifixion resurrection appearances. Paul's claim that 500 of the disciples of Jesus met with and communed with Jesus after his death is an unrealistic claim. The claim of an unrealistic event that Paul was not even a personal witness to.
The apostles certainly did not scatter. They journeyed to Galilee after the crucifixion. Then after 40 days they returned to Jerusalem and joined together with the rest of the disciples. Their number totaled about 120. (Acts 1:3 and Act 1:15). And on the day of Pentecost they began to spread the story of the risen Jesus. Who saw the risen Jesus? His disciples and only his disciples. And where was the risen man now? He bodily lifted off of the ground and flew off up into the sky. And who saw the risen man fly off up into the sky. His disciples and ONLY his disciples. But I do agree with you on one point. This was the beginning of what we now know as Christianity.
The major objection to this passage is that 1 Cor was written circa 55 AD. According to the information provided in the Gospels, Jesus was executed circa 30 BC., a quarter of a century earlier. 1 Corinthians does not represent the testimony of 500 eye witness individuals. It represents the testimony of PAUL. But Paul did not convert to Christianity until some years after Jesus had been executed. Paul was not present for ANY of the ministry of Jesus, never met Jesus personally, and was not present for any of the claimed post crucifixion resurrection appearances. Paul's claim that 500 of the disciples of Jesus met with and communed with Jesus after his death is an unrealistic claim. The claim of an unrealistic event that Paul was not even a personal witness to.
The apostles certainly did not scatter. They journeyed to Galilee after the crucifixion. Then after 40 days they returned to Jerusalem and joined together with the rest of the disciples. Their number totaled about 120. (Acts 1:3 and Act 1:15). And on the day of Pentecost they began to spread the story of the risen Jesus. Who saw the risen Jesus? His disciples and only his disciples. And where was the risen man now? He bodily lifted off of the ground and flew off up into the sky. And who saw the risen man fly off up into the sky. His disciples and ONLY his disciples. But I do agree with you on one point. This was the beginning of what we now know as Christianity.
And yet Peter, who walked with Jesus, confirmed Paul as an Apostle of Christ.
What I meant was, they ran from authorities and assumed Jesus was dead and gone forever. The gig was up.
And yet Peter, who walked with Jesus, confirmed Paul as an Apostle of Christ.
What I meant was, they ran from authorities and assumed Jesus was dead and gone forever. The gig was up.
Peter, one of the most renowned LIARS in all of literature, said that a corpse came back to life and flew away, as if THAT should settle the issue once and for all? But again I agree. The source for the rumor of the risen Jesus has been entirely provided by the FOLLOWERS of Jesus. Just as the Jewish priests suspected they
intended to do.
Matt. 27:
[62] Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
[63] Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
[64] Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.
Which is exactly what occurred. Joseph's tomb proved to be empty, and about six weeks later the disciples of Jesus began spreading the rumor that Jesus had risen from the dead.
And again I will point out that the apostles DID NOT scatter. They all Journeyed to Galilee.
Matt. 28:
[16] Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
Peter was initially hostile to Paul, but accepted Paul after Paul began turning over money to the Jerusalem church.
Last edited by Tired of the Nonsense; 07-21-2017 at 04:53 PM..
Peter, one of the most renowned LIARS in all of literature, said that a corpse came back to life and flew away, as if THAT should settle the issue once and for all? But again I agree. The source for the rumor of the risen Jesus has been entirely provided by the FOLLOWERS of Jesus. Just as the Jewish priests suspected they
intended to do.
Matt. 27:
[62] Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
[63] Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
[64] Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.
Which is exactly what occurred. Joseph's tomb proved to be empty, and about six weeks later the disciples of Jesus began spreading the rumor that Jesus had risen from the dead.
And again I will point out that the apostles DID NOT scatter. They all Journeyed to Galilee.
Matt. 28:
[16] Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
Speculation. You do NOT know exactly what happened. Seriously, you think that many people were able to carry out the hoax you propose? That's ludicrous!
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