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Good luck with that. I believe I have understood you perfectly, exposed your ploy and everyone else now sees it clearly. Indeed in your responses above, you have come out clearly - Jews and Christians are doing it wrong. To do "Islam" correctly, they must do it the Muslim way. You are welcome to try to show me wrong though. But now everyone has seen the point, you will have an uphill struggle, and not only with me.
Yes, only those will follow the Qur'an who submit to God (are believers and muslimeen), not Jews and not Christians despite these people being commanded by God at the time to follow the guidance in the Qur'an.
I did not say that there was no new revelation from God. The Qur'an was then the new revelation.
Only Muslims are commanded to follow the Quran. Jews and Crstns are not commanded to follow the Quran. Because they already had messengers who had delivered their message and instructions to a specific time and place.
You bring up an interesting point though.
In that Crstns and Muslims are doing the same thing in trying to boss everyone else around.
Judaism 3200 years ago says many paths to God, so all people have access to God. Judaism today still says the same thing. God is what matters not the religion, not the path, not the messenger.
Crstns however 2000 years ago says Jews (and everyone else in the world) must follow JC or go to hell. Well, Crstns dont get to tell Jews (and everyone else in the world) what to do. Crstns do not speak for God, only for Crstns.
Muslims 1400 years ago say Crstns and Jews (and everyone else in the world) must follow Quran or go to hell. Well, Muslims dont get to tell Crstns and Jews (and everyone else in the world) what to do. Muslims do not speak for God, only for Muslims.
I've always wondered how do Crstns feel now the shoe is on the other foot, being told "be a Muslim follow the Quran or go to hell" when that is what they have been telling Jews for 2,000 years "be a Crstn follow JC or go to hell." Muhammad was looking ahead and simply said "no more prophets after me" to prevent the next guy down the line deposing him. Kind of like kids playing musical chairs. He just says game over i win.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 09-03-2017 at 10:19 AM..
I don't think anyone will be be fooled by this. Whichever way you put it, merely doing their particular "submission" to God - that is according to the commands in the Quran (and if the Jews do circumcise, they don't pray five times a day or do the Hajj), is not "bringing the right fruits"; not obeying his commands. So even if you call it 'Islam" it is not the right kind of Islam. Only Muslim Islam is valid Islam.
Action of obeying commands from God is, in Arabic, “islam”. Refusing to obey commands from God is “kufr”.
Anyone who does not want to understand the above is not going to understand it. Whether he thinks he is intelligent person or not, is not my problem. To me, he simply hasn’t understood.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
This despite the tap -dancing around, (I have not stated that their submission is not right if not done according to the Qur'an. I have stated that if they do not obey any command in the Qur'an they are refusing to obey God's command.) which is saying the same thing in different words.
The topic is not which submission is right but what is submission. The two are not the same thing.
The topic is not about what Jews and Christians are doing post-Qur’an revelation but what people like Moses and Jesus did (obey the commands) before the revelation of the Qur'an. Obeying the commands is “islam” (in Arabic) and the person doing so is “muslim” (“musliman” to be precise) in Arabic language. This is relevant to the topic; and not whether today’s Jews and Christians are Muslims.
I have already explained that the Bani Israel was the first large group of people that was worshiping One True God and obeying commands from Him given to them before exodus. According to the definition of the word “muslim” or “musliman”, all those of Bani Israel who were obeying commands were “muslimeen” as well as Bani Israel. Then after exodus, Moses had another revelation to deliver to the Bani Israel. Through the revelation to Moses, Bani Israel was given more commands. They had to obey them all to be “muslim” in "islam”. Refuse to obey those commands and they refuse to obey God and thus are disqualified to be “muslim” in “islam” despite still being part of the Bani Israel. Their identity “Bani Israel” or “Israelites” cannot be taken away. Their identity as Bani Israel is not the topic of this thread. Nobody is saying that Jews are not Bani Israel or Jews but Muslims.
I have explained my point (even about some of the “Muslims” of today that they are not really Muslims) in details. It is not to fool anyone but merely to express my understanding of the topic. If anyone doesn’t want to understand the view expressed, it will make no difference to my understanding of what is “islam” and who is a “muslim”.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
Of course you haven't said that Christians and Jews are Muslims, you have said they are doing submission to God (which translates as "Islam") but because they are not doing it the Muslim way, (not according to the Quran) they are not obeying God's command, or refusing to obey God's command, if you want to put it that way, it it not "bringing the right fruit"; not obeying the command correctly. It is not right or valid, until done the Muslim way.
I haven’t said it in that long-winded way but you imagined that I said it in those words, because you knew it all along.
Bani Israel were doing submission before going to Egypt. They were given more commands after coming from Egypt. The entire adult group leaving Egypt with Moses refused to obey. They did not submit. They were not in "islam" and they were not "muslimeen".
Moses and Jesus did submission. They had obeyed the commands from God. Therefore, by definition of the word “islam”, they were doing “islam”. Any objection or refutation to that view?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
It comes to the same thing; "Islam' or not, they have to become Muslims to "correctly" do Islam.
And if they don’t, they are not Muslims. Correct?
Fine! They are not Muslims but Jews and Christians. I have no problem if you want to think that way. It is now clear that we agree on this point.
To my Jewish and Christians friends, please be assured that I am not calling you “Muslims”.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
As to Abraham, of course my own views are my own, but I don't see how you can avoid saying that Abraham, while being righteous/doing submission to God in his own way was not doing Islam correctly.
This is where your misunderstanding of this topic is exposed by yourself. I have already said in this thread that Abraham was doing islam correctly. In fact I will go further and say that “islam” is based on the way Abraham did “islam”. Here is the basis to this view:
[Qur'an 2.130] And who forsakes the tradition of Abraham but he who makes himself a fool, and most certainly We chose him in this world, and in the hereafter he is most surely among the righteous.
[2.124] And when his Lord tried Abraham with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Abraham said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He.
[3.67] Abraham was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was (an) upright (man), a musliman, and he was not one of the polytheists.
[Qur’an 6:161] Say: Lo! As for me, my Lord hath guided me unto a straight path, a right religion, the tradition of Abraham, the upright, who was no idolater.
But while it can be argued about whose fault it was that he didn't get the right revelation at that time (my view would be of course that all the revelations - Torah, Gospel, Quran and book of Mormon are al the inventions of men -as the admirable efforts of "Truth Teller" to find advanced science in the Quran shows to be the case by failing to show that it is right and in the fresh/salt water error, demonstrably wrong), I'd suggest that the True religion/commandments/revelation should have been given as soon as God sent an angelic messenger to him. That's if there was a "true' way of doing the commands of God.
God did exactly that. It is clear to me that you haven’t understood the explanation about what is “submission”.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
You can't tell me that the Quran is any more difficult to understand than the instructions given to Abraham, or the laws to Moses
I have not told you that. I have told you only that you have not understood my explanations about “islam” and “muslim”. You have dismissed them as if these were designed to fool people. I have no intention to fool anyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
While I can see a debate looming about that, Abraham is - since Mecca didn't even exist so he couldn't do the Hajj - a victim of his time and the knowledge of the time, as Islam is a victim of it's time and is stuck in early medieval middle eastern thought.
So that’s your point; all this about Abraham, Judaism, Christianity and Islam is nothing but “early medieval middle eastern thought” (fooling around). Yes, I knew that all along as the final trick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
That's why it is not relevant for us today and nor are any of those old religious practices. Which is why humanism is, and has been for a hundred years, the Latest revelation, that we should be regarding as the true 'Islam": doing right by the only "God" that matters - our duty to our fellow man, the world at large and the well -being and future of our species.
That is just trying to fool people.
Why?
Because you have already dismissed this point that I had expressed in the post 51:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
In Islam, according to the Qur'an, to be considered righteous for the world to come requires just two things:
Believing and doing good to others, earthly life and earthly environment to protect and preserve humanity on earth.
The above is the sum total of all the laws whether religious or secular. Humanity must come first if we are to be righteous people and godly people.
Now you are saying the same thing by calling it “Humanism”. My response to you about you fooling people is just as bad as your response to my posts here as fooling you and others. Everyone thinks that only their view is the correct one without thinking that the others’ view may be the same but expressed in different words.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
Of course, you won't agree. Of course, you will make all sorts of accusations about me. That's always par for the course.
Yeah, it was alright to disagree with me on what I had stated but you bring up the same BIG point of Humanism. Yes, it is always par for the course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
But, as I always say in these cases, let others decide who made the better case.
Now that you have brought up something about Humanism as the big point, others will decide whether my view expressed in the post 51 is any different fooling or the same fooling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
Tzaph is correct. Or at least I would agree that True "Islam" is in honouring God according to whichever method has been taught in their society - not in telling the others they are doing it wrong and trying to convert them, if not worse.
Once again, it is back to square one.
Islam is seen here as trying to convert them rather than even whichever method has been taught in their respective societies. But when one says that it is whichever methods has been taught in their respective societies is Islam the curtain comes down as if they are being converted into Islam.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
Of course, my own view that every religion is just as valid and the rest are a different debate and Tsaph. will not agree. I accept that.
Tzaph does try to understand the issue. I can discuss religion better with Tzaph and others than you with whom it is a trick to discuss religion. You will dismiss all so-called “Abrahamic religions” as no more than the "early medieval middle eastern thought".
Khalif, a few pages back trth tllr posted this.
question for you.
Are you saying that if Jews and Christians now in our time do not follow the Qaran they are going to hell?
an answer to that question will help people understand more clearly. it is very important for people to be clear on this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trth_tllr
...By Him in Whose hand is the life of Muhammad,
he who amongst the community of Jews or Christians hears about me,
but does not affirm his belief in that with which I have been sent
and dies in this state (of disbelief),
he shall be but one of the denizens of Hell-Fire.
Only Muslims are commanded to follow the Quran. Jews and Crstns are not commanded to follow the Quran. Because they already had messengers who had delivered their message and instructions to a specific time and place.
You raise three points:
1. Muslims are commanded to follow the Qur'an.
2. Jews and crstns are not commanded to follow the Qur'an.
3. Earlier messengers delivered their message and instructions to a specific time and place.
1. If there were no Muslims in Mecca when the Qur'an was revealed, which Muslims were commanded to follow the Qur'an?
2. Jews in Madina are addressed in several verses. Here are just two of them.
[5.15] O followers of the Book! Indeed Our messenger has come to you making clear to you much of what you concealed of the Book and passing over much; indeed, there has come to you light and a clear Book from Allah;
[5.19] O followers of the Book! indeed Our Apostle has come to you explaining to you after a cessation of the (mission of the) messengers, lest you say: There came not to us a giver of good news or a warner, so indeed there has come to you a giver of good news and a warner; and Allah has power over all things.
3. Yes, earlier messengers delivered their message to a specific time and place. The Qur'an was delivered for later time and for the mankind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
You bring up an interesting point though.
In that Crstns and Muslims are doing the same thing in trying to boss everyone else around.
Not this guy!
I am too busy to boss myself around.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
Judaism 3200 years ago says many paths to God, so all people have access to God. Judaism today still says the same thing. God is what matters not the religion, not the path, not the messenger.
There is no Judaism, no Christianity and no Islam without the messengers and a clear path to God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
Crstns however 2000 years ago says Jews (and everyone else in the world) must follow JC or go to hell. Well, Crstns dont get to tell Jews (and everyone else in the world) what to do. Crstns do not speak for God, only for Crstns.
Correct!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
Muslims 1400 years ago say Crstns and Jews (and everyone else in the world) must follow Quran or go to hell. Well, Muslims dont get to tell Crstns and Jews (and everyone else in the world) what to do. Muslims do not speak for God, only for Muslims.
The Qur'an is not saying so.
[5.69] Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in God and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
I've always wondered how do Crstns feel now the shoe is on the other foot, being told "be a Muslim follow the Quran or go to hell" when that is what they have been telling Jews for 2,000 years "be a Crstn follow JC or go to hell." Muhammad was looking ahead and simply said "no more prophets after me" to prevent the next guy down the line deposing him. Kind of like kids playing musical chairs. He just says game over i win.
Well, 1448 years and still counting. When will the next prophet come?
On the other hand, Christians might have a last laugh when Jesus returns (if he returns).
...
Well, 1448 years and still counting. When will the next prophet come? ....
Born in 1817, God summoned Mirza Husayn-‘Alí—known as Bahá’u’lláh Bahá’u’lláh—meaning the “Glory of God”—to deliver a new Revelation to humanity, from his revelation came Bahai (about 5 million followers) The Life of Bahá
Born in 1805 God summoned Joseph Smith founder of Mormonism and the Latter Day Saint movement. Smith published many revelations and other texts that his followers regard as scripture. His followers regard him as a prophet comparable to Moses and Elijah. (about 15 million followers) http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/joseph-smith
Around 1640 God summoned George Fox, he had a revelation in England and began preaching and teaching and from this grew the Quakers (about 400,000 followers) https://neym.org/learn/faq
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 09-03-2017 at 02:51 PM..
Khalif, a few pages back trth tllr posted this.
question for you.
Are you saying that if Jews and Christians now in our time do not follow the Qaran they are going to hell?
an answer to that question will help people understand more clearly. it is very important for people to be clear on this.
I did respond to it but you may have missed it.
The quote attributed to Muhammad is in hadith book(s). It is not from the Qur'an.
I believe the Qur'an as a revelation from God. Hadith books were written about 200 years after Muhammad had passed away. Hadith books are not approved by either God or Muhammad.
I believe Jews who observe all the laws in the Torah will not go to hell. They may have open mind about the Qur'an but rejecting it would mean rejecting commands from God. This is perhaps the point being made in the hadith quote. Indeed Allah does not say anything like that but disbelief is of course seen as disobedience. Not believing is one thing, rejecting outright is another. On top of rejecting it, hostility against any revelation is the worst. This is why you would never see a Muslim saying that he rejects the revelation of the Torah. Rejecting the Torah would take us into the domain of unbelief.
Born in 1817, God summoned Mirza Husayn-‘Alí—known as Bahá’u’lláh Bahá’u’lláh—meaning the “Glory of God”—to deliver a new Revelation to humanity, from his revelation came Bahai (about 5 million followers) The Life of Bahá
He was a Muslim, not a Baha'i. I have read his works. Baha'is believe that he was a messenger but I am not convinced that he was a messenger. He was not a prophet. Even Baha'is accept that he was not a prophet and that Muhammad was the last prophet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
Born in 1805 God summoned Joseph Smith founder of Mormonism and the Latter Day Saint movement. Smith published many revelations and other texts that his followers regard as scripture. His followers regard him as a prophet comparable to Moses and Elijah. (about 15 million followers) Joseph Smith - First Mormon Prophet Saw God and Jesus in First Vision
He was not a prophet. He only found the tablets. Revelation is supposed to have come to some earlier (than Muhammad) guy called Moroni.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
Around 1640 God summoned George Fox, he had a revelation in England and began preaching and teaching and from this grew the Quakers (about 400,000 followers) https://neym.org/learn/faq
I don't know much about either Mr. Fox or the Quakers.
Action of obeying commands from God is, in Arabic, “islam”. Refusing to obey commands from God is “kufr”.
Anyone who does not want to understand the above is not going to understand it. Whether he thinks he is intelligent person or not, is not my problem. To me, he simply hasn’t understood.
The topic is not which submission is right but what is submission. The two are not the same thing.
The topic is not about what Jews and Christians are doing post-Qur’an revelation but what people like Moses and Jesus did (obey the commands) before the revelation of the Qur'an. Obeying the commands is “islam” (in Arabic) and the person doing so is “muslim” (“musliman” to be precise) in Arabic language. This is relevant to the topic; and not whether today’s Jews and Christians are Muslims.
I have already explained that the Bani Israel was the first large group of people that was worshiping One True God and obeying commands from Him given to them before exodus. According to the definition of the word “muslim” or “musliman”, all those of Bani Israel who were obeying commands were “muslimeen” as well as Bani Israel. Then after exodus, Moses had another revelation to deliver to the Bani Israel. Through the revelation to Moses, Bani Israel was given more commands. They had to obey them all to be “muslim” in "islam”. Refuse to obey those commands and they refuse to obey God and thus are disqualified to be “muslim” in “islam” despite still being part of the Bani Israel. Their identity “Bani Israel” or “Israelites” cannot be taken away. Their identity as Bani Israel is not the topic of this thread. Nobody is saying that Jews are not Bani Israel or Jews but Muslims.
I have explained my point (even about some of the “Muslims” of today that they are not really Muslims) in details. It is not to fool anyone but merely to express my understanding of the topic. If anyone doesn’t want to understand the view expressed, it will make no difference to my understanding of what is “islam” and who is a “muslim”.
I haven’t said it in that long-winded way but you imagined that I said it in those words, because you knew it all along.
Bani Israel were doing submission before going to Egypt. They were given more commands after coming from Egypt. The entire adult group leaving Egypt with Moses refused to obey. They did not submit. They were not in "islam" and they were not "muslimeen".
Moses and Jesus did submission. They had obeyed the commands from God. Therefore, by definition of the word “islam”, they were doing “islam”. Any objection or refutation to that view?
And if they don’t, they are not Muslims. Correct?
Fine! They are not Muslims but Jews and Christians. I have no problem if you want to think that way. It is now clear that we agree on this point.
To my Jewish and Christians friends, please be assured that I am not calling you “Muslims”.
This is where your misunderstanding of this topic is exposed by yourself. I have already said in this thread that Abraham was doing islam correctly. In fact I will go further and say that “islam” is based on the way Abraham did “islam”. Here is the basis to this view:
[Qur'an 2.130] And who forsakes the tradition of Abraham but he who makes himself a fool, and most certainly We chose him in this world, and in the hereafter he is most surely among the righteous.
[2.124] And when his Lord tried Abraham with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Abraham said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He.
[3.67] Abraham was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was (an) upright (man), a musliman, and he was not one of the polytheists.
[Qur’an 6:161] Say: Lo! As for me, my Lord hath guided me unto a straight path, a right religion, the tradition of Abraham, the upright, who was no idolater.
God did exactly that. It is clear to me that you haven’t understood the explanation about what is “submission”.
I have not told you that. I have told you only that you have not understood my explanations about “islam” and “muslim”. You have dismissed them as if these were designed to fool people. I have no intention to fool anyone.
So that’s your point; all this about Abraham, Judaism, Christianity and Islam is nothing but “early medieval middle eastern thought” (fooling around). Yes, I knew that all along as the final trick.
That is just trying to fool people.
Why?
Because you have already dismissed this point that I had expressed in the post 51:
Now you are saying the same thing by calling it “Humanism”. My response to you about you fooling people is just as bad as your response to my posts here as fooling you and others. Everyone thinks that only their view is the correct one without thinking that the others’ view may be the same but expressed in different words.
Yeah, it was alright to disagree with me on what I had stated but you bring up the same BIG point of Humanism. Yes, it is always par for the course.
Now that you have brought up something about Humanism as the big point, others will decide whether my view expressed in the post 51 is any different fooling or the same fooling.
Once again, it is back to square one.
Islam is seen here as trying to convert them rather than even whichever method has been taught in their respective societies. But when one says that it is whichever methods has been taught in their respective societies is Islam the curtain comes down as if they are being converted into Islam.
Tzaph does try to understand the issue. I can discuss religion better with Tzaph and others than you with whom it is a trick to discuss religion. You will dismiss all so-called “Abrahamic religions” as no more than the "early medieval middle eastern thought".
Te recap the relevant points of the discussion:
Khalif: I am surprised you still can't understand that various commands are means to obey God. There is only one way to comply with them all; obey God by obeying the commands from Him. It is the act of "obeying the commands" that is called "submission"/"submitting"/"islam".
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
But is carrying out the Abrahamnic commands, but NOT the ones in the Quran Obeying or not?
Khalif It is of course obeying. That's the whole point of this thread.
Well, that looks as though you are saying that observing one's own rules as given to Jews and Christians is obeying. In which case you wouldn't be saying they should all do it the Muslim way.
But then, from the earlier post:
A few centuries after the Sinai revelation God commands Jewish people in Madina to do something else too. If they do, they submit to God and if they refuse then they refuse to obey God. Just as they could not refuse to obey the commands after Sinai on the basis of them not being given to Abraham, they could not refuse to obey commands given to them in Madina on the basis that these were not given to bani Israel with Moses.
If they do not obey the commands given to them through the Qur'an thinking that these are not from God but still adhere to and obey the commands given through Moses, it is still submitting to God. But on the other hand, if they dismiss the commands in the Qur'an saying that, even if they are from God, we are going to obey previous commands only then this would be willful refusal of obeying God.
This is clear. The previous rules were ok at the time, It was correctly 'submitting to God at the time. But when the Christian rules were given, Jews (logically) should have become Christians, and since the Quran was given, they should now observe Muslin rules.
This is very clear, though the reason for you refusing to recognize the Mormons as a more recent revelation seems arbitrary.
But the point is that it is casting the Quranic net over all the unconverted religions or they are not "Really" submitting to God.
I don't doubt that you prefer discussing with Tzap. as you get more room for manoeuvre I note you talk of a "clear path to God" where before you took issue with me for talking of 'many paths to God. Readers will note this shifting of stance to suit yourself.
As to humansim, that is a different matter and off the topic. Of course I can't expect you agree with me on my say so, or while you adhere to a specific religion based on a Holy Book .
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 09-03-2017 at 03:38 PM..
Menes an in Narmer of Dynasty 1? Canaanites, eh? I'd no idea they went back that early.
not muslims. the Muslims trace back to Menes and Mengewi ( see narmer's palette) and that head lopping and heart taking crew of the bloody .. 1st dyansty is where they killed the sons and grands sons of Job's family and used his family wealth to build Egypt and control the materlineal societies from Job three daughters.. The Khepa are the three daughters lineages of JOb's family ( (JEBusite) and they still own Zion.. see Zep and Micah for when in the future God will restore zion to those 3 lines (see the MN / Narmer's palette ages ) their true lineages rightful property that had been stolen by Egypt/Mizraim( and cousins) mn/ Narmer and those lineages controlled and it goes deep and world wide and part of the restoration of all things goes back to those 10 kings (the second generation on the Sumerian kings list.. the 3rd generation of kings is MN related and where Semiramis has her roots n Menes+ stolen and slave Khepha....) all the 10 kings relations of Job's relations sons and grandsons ...were Known as Elishah/Aleshire ( aka Philadelphia was a city state of many ) the great king at the time of the beheading .. all were trading sea people (AE)Lycians but their wealth was Job's family but was stolen and slaved and controled By Menes /egypt and canaanite ..... here is the burial places of the beheaded on the Palette . Tyre: Eerie Findings in a Phoenician Grave | Al Akhbar English
God was trying to take back what had been stolen By Egypt including the blood lines of the Khepa(t-h)(aka Sheba and Quippa, daughters of the oath of EVE , keepers of the promises to EVE ) to give to his son as his inheritance of that exact soil known as Israel .... God could only take and hold probably only the 3 daughters Hills. but al of the 10 are Job's families lands which had been usurped , slaved out and wealth controlled . .. which includes hills in Zion and Sodom and Samaria and Petra etc .
Jesus will be taking Zion back legally and as not a jew or as a son of David.. actually David and even Abraham was trading in stolen goods unknown to him .. But as a( AE)Lycians on his materlineal inheritance. These records being much older and provable with even current records . plus he can resurrect all witnesses needed to convince any court of anyone that it is his by materlineal inheritance by both of his moms wombs . both Bathsheba( meaning daughter of the oath ) and mary who was Eli- zabeth' ' ( daughter of the oath ) clan . but they were from two of the three hills/ lineages see the two bronze Pillars in the temple .
He is the promised seed of promises older than Abraham ( to the God "that women Love" , promised seed to EVE and oaths kept not by men( the Fathers) but by woman ) but remembered in the stars and their stories and in their 7 clan systems the church is modeled after . antichrist will respect neither God ,, Jehovah or Yeshua ( but it is the same guy but two ways to find him ) through our mothers clans and their scattered seed and through Abraham and the fathers clans and his scattered seed .
Last edited by n..Xuipa; 09-03-2017 at 04:36 PM..
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