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So no, you can't supply any type of writings from anyone previous to the Quran previous to Christianity using your 1200 year number. That still gives you 600 years to find something. Anything.
The present text of the Torah (the 5 books) is assumed to have been written 1200 years before the Qur'an. This dates back to the return from the Babylonian captivity.
You are writing in English so you are stuck in it as well. You cannot ignore the rules of English because they aren't the rules in Arabic.
Transliteration involves writing words in letters of another alphabet and often applying the grammar rules of the destination language. The fact that there are no capital letters in Hebrew doesn't mean that I can transliterate ignoring the existence of capital letters.
If I write "Muslim" in Arabic, Farsi or Urdu, I will not be using capital letter M. I would be writing "muslim". It is not my fault that the English writers used capital M to write muslim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends
Feel free to think that. Your thoughts do not coincide with Jewish belief.
The author is sure. Abraham was, in one way of understanding, the discoverer (via rational thinking and NOT REVELATION) but the rediscoverer because the idea of monotheism had already existed in some form. It is ok if you don't understand Judaism. I do.
Good for you!
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends
But those judgements become new law as made by man.
Law already exists. It is the judgment that is made by man according to the law.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends
If he believes in God, as ascertained rationally as Abraham did, then that's fine. Or do you think that without divine revelation he will either not believe in any God or must believe in many gods?
Would you believe blindly that God exists or think about it and ascertain rationally, using reason, as Abraham did initially?
Abraham, as stated, did think that there could be another power. But he did not patent it, as you assume. Monotheism existed even before Abraham. He was satisfied about his thinking only after he had revelation. He did not go around preaching about One God until he had revelation, otherwise he would have had many followers with him even before he had the first revelation.
It is my understanding, that this based on simple play of words. Islam is surrender, Muslim is one who surrenders to god. In that etymology, ANYONE who surrenders to god is a Muslim. Moses included, as example.
I have heard this many times from Muslims as well as 'we are all born Muslim, but forget'.
I am wondering how those(Jesus, Moses etc) said the Shahada, when Muhammed wasn't even born yet. There is no god but God. Muhammad is the messenger of God.
The present text of the Torah (the 5 books) is assumed to have been written 1200 years before the Qur'an. This dates back to the return from the Babylonian captivity.
That time period is part of Nevi'im and not the Torah. So again what is written by people other than judians or hebrews. Do not play definition games with me as you are doing with rosends.
If I write "Muslim" in Arabic, Farsi or Urdu, I will not be using capital letter M. I would be writing "muslim". It is not my fault that the English writers used capital M to write muslim.
But you did in post 32.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
Law already exists. It is the judgment that is made by man according to the law.
Again, that is not how Judaism understands the text. I could give you a resource which explains how the text tells humans that they can innovate and not just reflect on laws if you would like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
Would you believe blindly that God exists or think about it and ascertain rationally, using reason, as Abraham did initially?
All sorts of people believe blindly. What Abraham did was different and new. In terms of the 7 laws, if someone decides either blindly or rationally, but without divine revelation, he is still conforming to the law.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
Abraham, as stated, did think that there could be another power. But he did not patent it, as you assume. Monotheism existed even before Abraham.
Not monotheism as derived rationally and without revelation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
He was satisfied about his thinking only after he had revelation.
No, he was satisfied when he realized that he was certain, which was when he was a very young man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
He did not go around preaching about One God until he had revelation, otherwise he would have had many followers with him even before he had the first revelation.
So if he realized it rationally, you don't think that this counts because he didn't preach it? Since when it is a demand that one preach something? Of course, Berei**** Rabbah indicates 38:13 that he did, in a way preach it before his revelation.
Yes I did but I also explained what is in Arabic. Capital M is written only when writing in English otherwise it will not look right.
The point to note is that the word "muslim" in Arabic or "Muslim" in English does not mean Muhammadan or else it would be made clear by stating it as "Muhammadan".
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends
Again, that is not how Judaism understands the text. I could give you a resource which explains how the text tells humans that they can innovate and not just reflect on laws if you would like.
I have no problem how Judaism understands the text. There are so many texts other than what was given to Moses. I am not going to go into all of them to know how Judaism understands the text.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends
All sorts of people believe blindly. What Abraham did was different and new.
He thought about it even in the cave. This too was due to the guidance from God. He was sure only after he had revelation that what he was thinking since coming out of the cave is actually true.
[Qur'an 6.75] And thus did We show Abraham the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and that he might be of those who are sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends
In terms of the 7 laws, if someone decides either blindly or rationally, but without divine revelation, he is still conforming to the law.
When complying with the first law, he is aware of monotheism. Otherwise no reason to accept that he can't deny God. Only after a revelation in terms of external guidance that one can say that I can't deny God (monotheism).
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends
Not monotheism as derived rationally and without revelation.
He was not sure until God revealed to him. Only then he was sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends
No, he was satisfied when he realized that he was certain, which was when he was a very young man.
We believe that he was guided by God when still in the cave. Abraham was never an idol worshiper even as a boy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends
So if he realized it rationally, you don't think that this counts because he didn't preach it? Since when it is a demand that one preach something? Of course, Berei**** Rabbah indicates 38:13 that he did, in a way preach it before his revelation.
It doesn't say that he was worshiping God without any guidance from God. If he was worshiping God then he had already received guidance to worship his God. We "muslimeen" (in Arabic) believe that he was guided by God in the cave after his birth that there is One God. And that's why he kept looking for his God after coming out of the cave and worshiped only his God and never any idol or anything else.
Yes I did but I also explained what is in Arabic. Capital M is written only when writing in English otherwise it will not look right.
No, the capital M is used in English when referring to a particular proper noun, a name of a religion. If you don't mean the religion, you would write M. In the same way, if I didn;t want to refer to the lineage or language, just the spin on a pool ball, I would write english, not English.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
The point to note is that the word "muslim" in Arabic or "Muslim" in English does not mean Muhammadan or else it would be made clear by stating it as "Muhammadan".
This isn't about what it doesn't mean but about what it does mean.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
When complying with the first law, he is aware of monotheism. Otherwise no reason to accept that he can't deny God. Only after a revelation in terms of external guidance that one can say that I can't deny God (monotheism).
I disagree. Complying with the first law because of rational acceptance is a firm acceptance without divine revelation. That's what Abraham had.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
He was not sure until God revealed to him. Only then he was sure.
I don't know where you get this from. If it is from a source which has value in Islam then you would understand that I don't accept it as authority.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
It doesn't say that he was worshiping God without any guidance from God.
There is no mention of any worshipping, just the rational acceptance of monotheism without revelation.
That time period is part of Nevi'im and not the Torah. So again what is written by people other than judians or hebrews. Do not play definition games with me as you are doing with rosends.
I am talking about what was written soon after the Babylonian captivity as all the text had been lost/destroyed during the attack and captivity.
Basically, the so called 5 books of Moses in hand today were not written during the time of Moses as there is account in one of them of time after Moses had died (Deuteronomy 34:10).
... We "muslimeen" (in Arabic) believe that he was guided by God in the cave after his birth that there is One God. And that's why he kept looking for his God after coming out of the cave and worshiped only his God and never any idol or anything else.
"muslimeen" only believe that only after the Quran was written. "muslimeen" have attempted to erase/rewrite their pre-mohammad past of being polytheistic and being idol worshipers. Al-maqah the moon g-d existed. Allat existed as female goddess. Al-Uzza another female goddess. Manat another female goddess. Manaf. Dhul Khalasa. Ta'lab. Wadd. Shamash. Kahl. Dushara. And many more.
Last edited by Pruzhany; 08-22-2017 at 03:25 PM..
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