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Old 03-14-2008, 11:30 AM
 
Location: San Gabriel Valley, CA
12,542 posts, read 12,837,451 times
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That's true. How come ugly people aren't part of intelligent design? (I feel so left out.)

"Beauty as 'evidence' of intelligent design" also implies that imperfections can't be part of intelligent design. What about autistic people? Were they therefore not created by God? How about children who are born with spina bifida...did God forget to oversee all that? How about diabetics?

Or to turn it around from the original question, do conditions, birth defects or ugliness stand as proof *against* intelligent design?

I understand what the OP was getting at, but aside from the obvious fact that beauty is entirely subjective, it can be construed by anyone but a Harvard-educated former fashion model-turned-high powered attorney as a little bit insulting to say that beautiful things prove there's a God.
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Old 03-14-2008, 11:36 AM
 
Location: An absurd world.
5,162 posts, read 5,807,911 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoaminRed View Post
If beauty is evidence of intelligent design, what do you say to the ugly sibling when she's standing next to her beautiful sister? Gee kid, you're ugly...so you weren't made by god.
But what is ugly and what is not depends on who you ask. There is no "absolute beauty". You can't say something beautiful is God's creation when someone else may think it is ugly.


After all, the moon isn't that yellow smiley face in the sky they draw in children's books.
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Old 03-14-2008, 11:44 AM
 
Location: Santa Monica
4,708 posts, read 5,614,052 times
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'Beauty' is a tingling in the gray matter of members of the homo sapiens species. It is an epiphenomenon of human consciousness. Do birds experience 'beauty'? Etc.

'Beauty' is remarkable because it is irregularly distributed across reality. Is that what a rational person would expect of a universe having a divine origin?
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Old 03-14-2008, 11:45 AM
 
Location: Oz
2,238 posts, read 6,488,431 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haaziq View Post

After all, the moon isn't that yellow smiley face in the sky they draw in children's books.
Noooooooo!! Don't tell me such lies! Next you'll be saying it's not made of cheese, either. *sob*

Actually, an interesting sidebar to the OP would be to ask: Do only humans perceive beauty?
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Old 03-14-2008, 11:48 AM
 
Location: An absurd world.
5,162 posts, read 5,807,911 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoaminRed View Post
Noooooooo!! Don't tell me such lies! Next you'll be saying it's not made of cheese, either. *sob*

Actually, an interesting sidebar to the OP would be to ask: Do only humans perceive beauty?
It isn't made of cheese, lmao.


I would think animals can perceive beauty as well. They do pick one mate out of all the possible ones they can have. Or maybe that's just liking their personality, I don't know.
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Old 03-14-2008, 12:00 PM
 
799 posts, read 2,826,159 times
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Default Albert Einstein stands with you

Quote:
Originally Posted by MidniteBreeze View Post
Threads of this conversation have popped up elsewhere and it's something I've pondered on more than one occassion...so forgive me if I indulge by starting a new thread on the topic

One of the age old ways a believer tries to convince a non-believer of a higher power is to have him/her look at the beauty of nature and ask him/her, "Now can this really all be due to chance alone? Can't you see there is an artist at work here?"

So let's take a mountain vista. Thanks to science, I can look at it and know (at least on a basic level), HOW the mountains formed, why there's snow on top of them and that yes, this is indeed the right type of soil for a pinon pine forest. That's pretty cool (and my logical brain is forever grateful that I am able to HAVE this knowledge), but the other, less logical (spiritual?) side of me has a more emotional reaction and just says "WOW! That's so beautiful!"

That's the side of me (us?) that can't help but wonder if there's something "bigger" than us out there. I certainly can't prove it, but somehow I guess I WANT to believe that I'm really looking at a work of art and not a bunch of "randomness" that happens to make a pretty picture.

They say beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but we as humans seem to have at least some universal standards, regardless of time or culture. I think almost anyone would much rather gaze at the above mountain vista than say, a pile of dirt. Still, are we merely "conditioned" to find mountains (or beaches, or whatever) asthetically pleasing? If, instead of Earth, we inhabited the dirt pile filled planet Zygor...would we look at THAT world with the same sense of wonder?

(Perhaps that's why the aliens are more scientifcally advanced than we are, ha ha.)

Thanks for letting me ramble.
"The most beautiful and profound emotion we can experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty, which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling, is at the center of true religion."
-Albert Einstein-

"The scientist's religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, in comparison with it, the highest intelligence of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection. This feeling is the guiding principle of his life and work."
-Albert Einstein-

"The true value of a human being can be found in the degree to which he has attained liberation from the self."
-Albert Einstein-

A human being is a part of the whole that we call the universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest - a kind of optical illusion of his consciousness. This illusion is a prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for only the few people nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living beings and all of nature."
-Albert Einstein-
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Old 03-14-2008, 02:02 PM
 
Location: Grand Rapids, MN
571 posts, read 1,783,339 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rubyskye View Post
"The most beautiful and profound emotion we can experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty, which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling, is at the center of true religion."
-Albert Einstein-

"The scientist's religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, in comparison with it, the highest intelligence of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection. This feeling is the guiding principle of his life and work."
-Albert Einstein-

"The true value of a human being can be found in the degree to which he has attained liberation from the self."
-Albert Einstein-

A human being is a part of the whole that we call the universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest - a kind of optical illusion of his consciousness. This illusion is a prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for only the few people nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living beings and all of nature."
-Albert Einstein-
Thank you for posting this.
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Old 03-14-2008, 02:18 PM
 
Location: Grand Rapids, MN
571 posts, read 1,783,339 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
That's true. How come ugly people aren't part of intelligent design? (I feel so left out.)

"Beauty as 'evidence' of intelligent design" also implies that imperfections can't be part of intelligent design. What about autistic people? Were they therefore not created by God? How about children who are born with spina bifida...did God forget to oversee all that? How about diabetics?

Or to turn it around from the original question, do conditions, birth defects or ugliness stand as proof *against* intelligent design?

I understand what the OP was getting at, but aside from the obvious fact that beauty is entirely subjective, it can be construed by anyone but a Harvard-educated former fashion model-turned-high powered attorney as a little bit insulting to say that beautiful things prove there's a God.
Just to clairify, I'm not claiming that beauty is, INDEED evidence of intelligent design (thus the word 'evidence' in quotes.)

I know there's also ugliness (or at least not beautiful things) in the world too, i.e., those piles of dirt!

I would argue that beauty is not *entierly* subjective. As I mentioned in the OP, there seem to be some universal standards across humanity with regards to things we find asthetically pleasing, be they people, objects or nature. (Again, who would choose to look at a pile of dirt over a sweeping mountain vista? Who would rather live in a gray, cinder block room as opposed to one filled with color and texture?)

As far as humans being the only ones that experience beauty, I don't know. There is much evidence to support that primates (and other animals) do better in a more asthetically pleasing, natural envrionment as opposed to some depressing cage in a zoo, even when things like food, water, etc. are held constant.
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Old 03-14-2008, 03:25 PM
 
799 posts, read 2,826,159 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MidniteBreeze View Post
Thank you for posting this.
You're welcome and i didn't realize that today is Albert Einsteins' birthday - 3/14 and it's Pi (3.14159...............................) Day!
Happy Pi Day and Happy Birthday Mr. Einstein.
Attached Thumbnails
beauty as "evidence" of intelligent design-albert-einstein-1.jpg  
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Old 03-14-2008, 04:59 PM
 
Location: Grand Rapids, MN
571 posts, read 1,783,339 times
Reputation: 279
Oh wow...I knew it was pi day, but I didn't know it was also Einstein's b-day. Very fitting
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