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What about the most important part of the "WHOLE BIBLE"............What Jesus did on the CROSSfor each one of us.
For the most part, most religions are not sure how we get there or if we even do. God and Jesus have told us with no doubt through HIM we will live together for eternity. It's just too bad, some don't see what the TRUE message of the Bible is.
It's funny you would point to the Bible while debating nonbelievers.
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Originally Posted by freedom
Free-will is a fullfilment of unconditional love. God's plan is that we might have joy. Joy unlimited is only possible with perfect love.
This Thread is many things, i like the freedom of expression that has transpired.
If God truly has a "plan", then what we have is merely an illusion of free will. If God truly has a "plan", then it's fair to assume that he's a real bastard (just look at what you see happening all around us that people claim is part of "God's Plan").
If he loved us, if he was perfect, if he wanted us to be happy, there would be no reason to create a world as it is now.
But of course, arguing about the nature of God is pointless since there isn't one. Prove he actually exists (real empirical evidence, not just your feelings, or what you read in the Bible, or what you heard from a friend of a friend)
To you--not to me. The only thing about this God that makes no sense to me is why He tolerates me. But He does, in His mercy and grace, He does.
yh yh love and all, as i said human god.
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Originally Posted by Alpha8207
Love this quote. Absolutely love it. If She gave evidence before and you don't accept it, exactly why would She give it again? At least you just admitted that She did give evidence before, so She (maybe like me) is just saying 'Nuff said'.
Didn't you understand my implication? In the bible, god is depicted doing miracles at the drop of a hat. Kings 18:24,38-40 they actually have a god choosing contests where she shows off to all the people. Nowadays nothing of the sort happens which sort of makes you wonder if they just made it all up.
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Originally Posted by Alpha8207
Sometimes I think people lack rational thought.
Me too
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Originally Posted by Alpha8207
Not much but enough.
The human mind is good at making things up but there is a limit to the imagination. Just as how we cannot imagine new colours, we cannot imagine truly incomprehensible gods and so they pretty much end up as anthropomorphic deities whose inconsistency are said to be due to our limitations.
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Originally Posted by Alpha8207
The impression you are getting has nothing to do with reality.
The impression I am getting is the EXACT opposite of the impression you are getting. So which one of us is correct?? And how do we know??
Thats the impression i got from freedoms comments, how else am i going to take?:
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I think that doubt is a tool to spread unbelief
-we shouldn't doubt
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I'm glad that we are unaware of physical evidence, it causes me to go within and confirm all things.
-we shouldn't try to look for evidence
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Sometimes we have to step away from logic and into knowing. Man's use of logic has not always been perfect.
-we shouldn't try to use logic
How does someone without believe take these things? Would either you or freedom agree that we should always trust the word of others? even the shady looking guy with the unresponsive pupils asking for money for heroic sounding reasons?
would you not look for evidence of things before forming a conclusion? Would you judge someone guilty for murder without a shred of objective evidence pointing to the guy?
Would you stop using logic on the grounds that people sometimes call their jumbled thinking "logic"? should i just quit mathematics today?
Again if any of the answers to this is a No then why do we take the personal jeudo-xian god? Ah yh, special pleading
If he loved us, if he was perfect, if he wanted us to be happy, there would be no reason to create a world as it is now.
God created the world yes, but we have created the state in which it is in now. The world is the way it is because of us, not God. If more people would realize that ( believers and non-believers) and take responsibility for their actions, then it wouldn't be in as bad of shape as it is.
Thats the impression i got from freedoms comments, how else am i going to take?:
-we shouldn't doubt
-we shouldn't try to look for evidence
-we shouldn't try to use logic
Doubt is a negative approach to proving all things. We should engage in the positive not the negative, realizing everything is a process of discovery.
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How does someone without believe take these things? Would either you or freedom agree that we should always trust the word of others? even the shady looking guy with the unresponsive pupils asking for money for heroic sounding reasons?
We are taught to not trust in the arm of flesh, or the logic of man.
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would you not look for evidence of things before forming a conclusion? Would you judge someone guilty for murder without a shred of objective evidence pointing to the guy?
Seeking is the opposite of doubt.
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Would you stop using logic on the grounds that people sometimes call their jumbled thinking "logic"? should i just quit mathematics today?
Whatever the subject, man is limited in his understanding.
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Again if any of the answers to this is a No then why do we take the personal jeudo-xian god? Ah yh, special pleading
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 11,436,860 times
Reputation: 1463
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Originally Posted by Haaziq
The Flying Spaghetti Monster..
Oh well, what makes my God real at least to me and to others who like me have found the path that leads to him, is that I've felt his pressence during my meditation, during my day, when I do Good, when I think Good, when I wish Good, when I smile with my soul, when I love, but also when I feel weak, restless, depressed, lonely and I ask for help I feel his divine energies of peace, love, wisdom, joy, strenght and uplifts me, I have also asked and received, my life is an story if unbelievable things, yet they keep happening to me because my mind is always focused on God, whenever my mind is focused on him I dare to do the most difficult or crazy things knowing everything will be just right and perfect, and it's always like this
I've never meditated on the FSM though, but if I did and I felt his pressence it would be because God is manifesting as the FSM to me, God is formless unmanifested spirit, so he doesn't care the way you like to worship him, God can be Shiva, Ganesha, Vishnu or Jeovah, he can be Buddha or Christ, Krishna or Paramhansa Yogananda, He can be the heavenly father, The divine mother, the best friend, the most passionate lover, etc.
But he's there, you just need to seek him inside you, in the bottom of your soul, and then you'll find him because he is your very essence.
You want proof? just learn to turn on your intuition by exploring your inner self regardless of the discipline you perform to awaken it, and then when you feel him just ask for something, but something pure, something good, and you'll have it.
if your desire to see him is strong enough and your heart is pure, you might get his vision
God created the world yes, but we have created the state in which it is in now. The world is the way it is because of us, not God. If more people would realize that ( believers and non-believers) and take responsibility for their actions, then it wouldn't be in as bad of shape as it is.
I like how you ignore the part about an illusion of free will due to "God's Plan" so you can make a point that would have made no sense.
I do not know a single non-believer that believes that God is responsible for the state of the world today, though. Kind of goes against non-belief.
Doubt is a negative approach to proving all things. We should engage in the positive not the negative, realizing everything is a process of discovery.
How do we separate whats true and whats not? What makes doubt negative? Its not an active denial but it does make people think twice before coming to conclusions.
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Originally Posted by freedom
We are taught to not trust in the arm of flesh, or the logic of man.
As a mathematician in training i find this rather insulting.
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Originally Posted by freedom
Seeking is the opposite of doubt.
No, the opposite of doubt is blind trust. Conversely the opposite of seeking is not seeking. Even if you were to call blind faith "becoming spiritually enlightened", it still doesn't change what it is.
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Originally Posted by freedom
Whatever the subject, man is limited in his understanding.
And thus what we understand is wrong? hey there's some bad logic
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Originally Posted by freedom
I don't understand what this means.
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Originally Posted by wiki
Special pleading is a form of spurious argumentation where a position in a dispute introduces favorable details or excludes unfavorable details by alleging a need to apply additional considerations without proper criticism of these considerations themselves. Essentially, this involves someone attempting to cite something as an exemption to a generally accepted rule, principle, etc. without justifying the exemption.
The lack of criticism may be a simple oversight (e.g., a reference to common sense) or an application of a double standard.
A more difficult case is when a possible criticism is made relatively immune to investigation. This immunity may take the forms of:
reference to vocabulary that is owned by a distinct community with sole rights to assess meaning and application
Example: If you do something illegal it is right for the government to arrest you.
unexplained claims of exemption from principles commonly thought relevant to the subject matter
Example: I'm not relying on faith in small probabilities here. These are slot machines, not roulette wheels. They are different.
claims to data that are inherently unverifiable, perhaps because too remote or impossible to define clearly
Example: Cocaine use should be legal. Like all drugs, it does have some adverse health effects, but cocaine is different from other drugs. Many have benefited from the effects of cocaine.
assertion that the opponent lacks the qualifications necessary to comprehend a point of view
Example: I know you think that I should be giving my money to the poor, but you've never been rich before. There are things about wealth that you don't understand.
assertion that literally nobody has the qualifications necessary to comprehend a point of view
Example: I know the idea that ball lightning is caused by ghosts makes no sense to you, but that's only because you're human. Humans cannot understand supernatural phenomena. In the classic distinction among material, psychological, and logical fallacies,[1] special pleading most likely falls within the category of psychological fallacy, as it would seem to relate to "lip service", rationalization, and diversion (abandonment of discussion). Special pleading also often resembles the "appeal to" logical fallacies.
In philosophy, it is assumed that wherever a distinction is claimed, a relevant basis for the distinction should exist and be substantiated. Special pleading is a subversion of this assumption.
Why is it that you would blindly trust("seek") that your views of god are right whilst you would probably doubt the stranger trying to sell you the Eiffel tower? Why is it that people accept hearsay as proof of the miracles supposedly done by jesus but reject claims that Sergei Torop is jesus reincarnated?
Again, the impression that i keep getting is that as long as its to do with god then critical thinking should be thrown out the window
I like how you ignore the part about an illusion of free will due to "God's Plan" so you can make a point that would have made no sense.
I do not know a single non-believer that believes that God is responsible for the state of the world today, though. Kind of goes against non-belief.
As far as the first part goes, I know other believers might feel differently but, God's "Plan" to me is for us to get back to him. I make every choice on my own, my life is not planned out already from start to finish. Every choice I make whether good or bad is because of free will. While I do look to God for guidance, every decision is mine to make. To me, your definition of God's plan is wrong.
If you would see, I said that everyone needs to take responsibility for their actions, both believers and non-believers. I have been on here long enough to know that non-believers don't believe in God.
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CROSS
