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Old 09-29-2017, 07:37 PM
 
6,324 posts, read 4,307,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobster View Post
It's just that if people agree to go in that direction, it will take a tremendous amount of discipline. You will have to destroy greed. Now, I am not familiar with the the text of any other religion other than Christianity, but I know that greed is not possible if one follows the words of Christ, so what better system for foundational development is there than that set of rules?
The reason why Christianity and following the teachings of Christ would NOT make a good "foundational development" is because Christ is essentially the founder of a RELIGION.

It means there is roughly 2,500 years of doctrinal baggage tied up with Jesus and his "rules."

Certainly some of his words (assuming they ARE his words given that nothing ever quoted from Jesus was written by someone who actually HEARD him say anything) contain real wisdom.

But all of that wisdom can be found in other sources -- even sources older than Christianity.

Jesus wasn't the first person in human history that said to "love thy neighbor."

And remember, too, that it was Jesus and the NT that first began saying there's eternal torture waiting for us if we don't submit immediately and acknowledge Jesus as our "Lord and Savior."

Jesus's prohibition against sexual sin -- which is extremely vague and non-specific -- has also been used to claim that Jesus is firmly against homosexuality, which is just one of many suitcases in that baggage train stretching back thousands of years.

And, after that, we are told that it isn't enough to simply follow his teachings. In fact, it doesn't matter all that much if we do. No, what's REALLY important is to beg forgiveness each and every day so that we won't die with unforgiven sins on our record and end up in the fiery land of eternal torment. BELIEF that Jesus is the son of God, belief that he was crucified for our sins, belief that he was resurrected and whisked bodily into Heaven ... and all the rest of the supernatural mambo-jahambo are required, as well.

If we believe that Jesus is the son of God -- then that means acknowledging that God exists, the Bible is True, and we really ARE doomed to an eternity being a slave to a genocidal, bear-sending and child-slaying, first-born murdering, planet-flooding, bets-with-Satan-making, irrational, insane, aggressive-war-waging, city-killing, pillar-of-salt-creating, homophobic, bigoted, intolerant and, finally, mentally unstable superbeing.

Of course, we atheists don't believe in any of that.

I suppose the question then becomes: Just HOW much of Christ's teachings do you think we're supposed to follow?
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Old 09-29-2017, 09:01 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,469 posts, read 24,054,533 times
Reputation: 32779
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobster View Post
I'm trying to help you.

You know what definitely won't believe in God? AI. Unless more sophisticated methods are currently available or perhaps available at a future date, currently machine learning is predicated off of statistical data. With enough data, anomalies could be discovered in existing material that could eventually lead to new discoveries and potentially open doors for more discoveries. That is the idea, anyway.

The problem is, and perhaps I am a pessimist in this regard, is that AI will either believe it to be God at least by one definition, and I wager that it also won't find the importance in finding natural solutions since it was not created by nature. So perhaps, there will be a choice at some point for those with the means to make this choice to abandon humanity and instead accept an alternate reality.

But prior to this event, I imagine that things will occur for multiple reasons, including individual economic viability, which will be increasingly limited in the future due to the replacement of human capital with technology. An unruly and unemployable populous might do desperate things in order to get the attention of those who control the resources. This could lead to over reliance on AI, resulting in making choices we were not prepared to make.

There is an alternative. Change immediately. If you want guidance, I have no better suggestion than the words of Christ. That's my piece.
There's problem # 1. You guys always assume athesits want your help. You always assume atheists need your help.
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Old 09-29-2017, 09:03 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,469 posts, read 24,054,533 times
Reputation: 32779
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
The reason why Christianity and following the teachings of Christ would NOT make a good "foundational development" is because Christ is essentially the founder of a RELIGION.

It means there is roughly 2,500 years of doctrinal baggage tied up with Jesus and his "rules."

Certainly some of his words (assuming they ARE his words given that nothing ever quoted from Jesus was written by someone who actually HEARD him say anything) contain real wisdom.

But all of that wisdom can be found in other sources -- even sources older than Christianity.

Jesus wasn't the first person in human history that said to "love thy neighbor."

And remember, too, that it was Jesus and the NT that first began saying there's eternal torture waiting for us if we don't submit immediately and acknowledge Jesus as our "Lord and Savior."

Jesus's prohibition against sexual sin -- which is extremely vague and non-specific -- has also been used to claim that Jesus is firmly against homosexuality, which is just one of many suitcases in that baggage train stretching back thousands of years.

And, after that, we are told that it isn't enough to simply follow his teachings. In fact, it doesn't matter all that much if we do. No, what's REALLY important is to beg forgiveness each and every day so that we won't die with unforgiven sins on our record and end up in the fiery land of eternal torment. BELIEF that Jesus is the son of God, belief that he was crucified for our sins, belief that he was resurrected and whisked bodily into Heaven ... and all the rest of the supernatural mambo-jahambo are required, as well.

If we believe that Jesus is the son of God -- then that means acknowledging that God exists, the Bible is True, and we really ARE doomed to an eternity being a slave to a genocidal, bear-sending and child-slaying, first-born murdering, planet-flooding, bets-with-Satan-making, irrational, insane, aggressive-war-waging, city-killing, pillar-of-salt-creating, homophobic, bigoted, intolerant and, finally, mentally unstable superbeing.

Of course, we atheists don't believe in any of that.

I suppose the question then becomes: Just HOW much of Christ's teachings do you think we're supposed to follow?
Yes, when I became a Buddhist, it amazed me how much the Christians stole from that older religion.
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Old 09-29-2017, 09:53 PM
 
3,271 posts, read 2,180,151 times
Reputation: 2458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora View Post
I don't thing he's looking for any help from you. Nor are any other folks who don't ascribe to religion.



Can you stop proselytizing in this thread?

This thread is not a soapbox for you to proselytize. In fact it's the opposite...it's about the US seeing a decline in religion followers; particularly fundamentalists.
Well, is there something that you can provide that states contrary to what I said?

I think you might be missing the point of what I was saying.

Do you not fear death?

I do. I have no idea what's on the other side, but instead of thinking, that there are some people in terrible conditions, so how could there be a God, I think to myself, if there are people in these positions, what is in store for me?

You know, deep down, I don't want to believe this. That is why I am afraid. I am not pure of heart. I am selfish and self centered and I care mostly about myself and only myself. I have no idea what awaits me.

Neither do you.

I just feel we have a responsibility to future generations. Can you come up with better alternatives? I mean, let's just assume we would like to save everyone and allow us all to make smart decisions moving forward, beneficial for not just us, but for future generations.

The world is a delicate balance. When we disrupt that balance by destroying a species, we may cause another species depended on that species to eventually die, which in turn may eventually, if not inevitably destroy another species until at the very end, where everything rapidly declines at once.

We could be at that point, yet we complacently march forward, dependent on technology, when I have provided a simple set of rules that you could follow to help cure of us of ourselves, and allow us to move forward with discipline and preservation for those that come after us.

I just don't understand this.

What is it that you want? Do you want to die? Do you want to live forever in an artificial environment until you are no longer necessary?

Then perhaps, you will live forever, but you will be paralyzed until the end of the Universe which I believe could drain, if tapped. You see, there is untapped energy in the universe because it is similar to a rubber band. It is possible that at some point it could be discovered how to do this, which could disrupt the balance and lead to its demise.

I really don't know. I don't have a background in astrophysics. I'm sure you do though, right?

I mean, if you want me out of here, just say the words and I'm gone. I don't even like this part of the forum. I feel like I have people coming at me from three corners before I get grabbed from behind.

That actually happened to be once before, but luckily, it was the bouncer that grabbed me, so I was simply removed from the premises. Lol. No problem. I have a lot of confidence in my hands, but in new territory with no friends, and a lot of chairs kicking back, it could have been much worse. I'll take the L and just keep it moving.

But just go ahead and tell me you want me removed, just like that bouncer because I really can't deal with all of this. This is just too much. I'm arguing one position, you're defending another position, and it just doesn't make any sense. I don't even care anymore. I was trying to do a service by providing some simple logic that nobody seems to grasp. I just don't get it.

Bottom line, people are killers. Jesus was not. Get with the picture. Read it. Tell me what you don't like. Tell me what you think makes you upset. What about it makes you so mad that you'd rather we be run by potential megalomaniac sociopaths? I mean, do you want a centralization of power?

For reference, I use the Gideons. Please don't ban me. Just ask me to leave. I'm gone.

ssssssssssssssssssssssss


That's the wind.
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Old 09-29-2017, 10:17 PM
 
Location: Middletown, CT
993 posts, read 1,762,812 times
Reputation: 1098
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
Typical grandstanding. The ONLY research atheists are so passionately defensive of gays is because it is an easy way to scapegoat Christians. You never heard a peep from your side raising the rainbow flag in earlier decades wher most Americans were not brainwashed and saw it as an immoral and dangerous lifestyle (yea let's just pretend homosexuality has nothing to do with HIV).
Conveniently ignoring lesbian couples just so you can justify your disgust of gay men.
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Old 09-29-2017, 10:43 PM
 
Location: Pacific 🌉 °N, 🌄°W
11,761 posts, read 7,231,599 times
Reputation: 7528
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobster View Post
Do you not fear death?
Nope not even a tiny bit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobster View Post
You know, deep down, I don't want to believe this. That is why I am afraid. I am not pure of heart. I am selfish and self centered and I care mostly about myself and only myself.
Sounds like you need to seek a good therapist to help you with your narcissistic and fear issues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobster View Post
I have no idea what awaits me.
Neither do you.
Which is why I don't waste my time or my life worrying about what happens when I die. I guess I will find out when it happens and until then I will just continue living my life and creating the life I want.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobster View Post
I just feel we have a responsibility to future generations.
Just exactly what responsibility should we have for future generations?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobster View Post
I mean, let's just assume we would like to save everyone and allow us all to make smart decisions moving forward, beneficial for not just us, but for future generations.
I don't play the assume games nor the speculate games...it's a waste of my time and mind. I deal with what's real.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobster View Post
...when I have provided a simple set of rules that you could follow to help cure of us of ourselves, and allow us to move forward with discipline and preservation for those that come after us.
Help cure us of ourselves?...now that's an oxymoron.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobster View Post
I don't have a background in astrophysics.
The two best teachers out there right now are Lawrence Krauss and Neil deGrasse Tyson. You can watch them on YouTube and learn a lot from them. Neil has just come out with a very good book that I highly recommend you or anyone else who is interested in learning about the Universe and how it works. I have the audio-book and it's really good. Check it out: Astrophysics for People in a Hurry by Neil deGrasse Tyson.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobster View Post
I was trying to do a service by providing some simple logic that nobody seems to grasp. I just don't get it.
No what you were really doing was proselytizing your religion. What you really don't get is that people are adults here and most walk to the beat of their own drum and find their own ways to achieve a higher evolved consciousness. That's what you really seem to have difficulty accepting. It's what your religion teaches you to believe...that there's only one very narrow constrained way to achieve higher consciousness. That's the biggest deception your religion teaches and it's most likely the reason we see more and more people walking away from your type of religion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobster View Post
Bottom line, people are killers.
No the bottom line is not this. The bottom line is this. Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. That's the real bottom line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobster View Post
Jesus was not. Get with the picture. Read it.
I've already asked you to stop proselytizing your religion here. I am not interested in it and if I was interested in it I would be pursuing it on my own vs. having to deal with someone like you trying to push their agenda on me. Get the picture?
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Old 09-29-2017, 11:09 PM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,083 posts, read 20,582,163 times
Reputation: 5927
That's it. We goddless don't fear death (though we don't care for an unpleasant or violent one) or what may be afterwards.

We feel responible for our planet, society and future generations. Which is why we advocate science and reason, not religion and kneejerk hate and fear.

We need no lectures or help from the religious. Rather they have something to learn from us.
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Old 09-29-2017, 11:22 PM
 
Location: Pacific 🌉 °N, 🌄°W
11,761 posts, read 7,231,599 times
Reputation: 7528
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
That's it. We goddless don't fear death (though we don't care for an unpleasant or violent one) or what may be afterwards.

We feel responible for our planet, society and future generations. Which is why we advocate science and reason, not religion and kneejerk hate and fear.

We need no lectures or help from the religious. Rather they have something to learn from us.
I could not have said this better myself! This is Spot On!
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Old 09-29-2017, 11:50 PM
 
63,570 posts, read 39,862,781 times
Reputation: 7820
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
That's it. We goddless don't fear death (though we don't care for an unpleasant or violent one) or what may be afterwards.
We feel responible for our planet, society and future generations. Which is why we advocate science and reason, not religion and kneejerk hate and fear.
We need no lectures or help from the religious. Rather they have something to learn from us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora View Post
I could not have said this better myself! This is Spot On!
Unabashedly arrogant and hubristic as always.
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Old 09-30-2017, 12:11 AM
 
Location: Pacific 🌉 °N, 🌄°W
11,761 posts, read 7,231,599 times
Reputation: 7528
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Unabashedly arrogant and hubristic as always.
There is absolutely nothing arrogant or hubristic about anything that either of us said. You have misinterpreted our words if all you get out of it is judgmental name calling.

Perhaps you need to go and meditate...or just go to bed grouchy sounding one.
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