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You guys keep citing the DOCUMENTS...like a hardcore Fundie citing the Bible. That's what they do...go by the "documents", instead of what is real. I'm not talking about what they put in those papers...I'm talking about WHAT THEY DID. They founded this country on the main Christian principles of worship of God and Jesus, and using the Bible as a "manual"...and they promoted that better than most evangelists.
Hey...if you guys wanna go by that: Unless you acknowledge a "Creator" (large "C"), no "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness" for you! After all...according to the "founding documents" that is the only source for those "unalienable rights". You can't get them from your country, or from other people...and government only helps you "secure" those rights, it doesn't provide them. The CREATOR is the ONLY source of endowment. Soooooo...logically--No Creator...No Rights! You better get hip to that.
We should make that a law...a Constitutional Amendment even...so it jibes with the D of I. If you do not acknowledge a Creator (large "C")...you can not make any claim to those rights. When every kid turns 18 they should have to fill out a form acknowledging such...or their name goes into a database as having waived, by default, their rights. All to make sure we stay in "conformity" with those "documents" dontcha know!
If this country were founded on Judeo-Christian principles, the bolded above would have been done already. But the Constitution, which is the law of the land and not just some archaic document, directly contradicts at least three of the ten commandments that are the basis of Judeo-Christian dogma. So, while there may be some common principles between America and Judeo-Christian dogma, America is not 'based on' Judeo-Christian principles specifically.
A side note - Yes people talk of rights granted by "God", but when your rights are being violated, who is there to protect them? It seems if we were endowed with rights from a "Creator", they would not be so easily taken away.
If this country were founded on Judeo-Christian principles, the bolded above would have been done already. But the Constitution, which is the law of the land and not just some archaic document, directly contradicts at least three of the ten commandments that are the basis of Judeo-Christian dogma. So, while there may be some common principles between America and Judeo-Christian dogma, America is not 'based on' Judeo-Christian principles specifically.
A side note - Yes people talk of rights granted by "God", but when your rights are being violated, who is there to protect them? It seems if we were endowed with rights from a "Creator", they would not be so easily taken away.
Religious types like GldRule always ignore what the U.S. Constitution actually says in favor of what their pastor tells them it says. Neither the constitution nor the preamble nor the Bill of Rights say that life, liberty and pursuit of happiness are exclusive to god believers. What they also ignore is that there are several sets of commanments that they are supposed to follow. Case in point, I don't see Exodus 34:13-14 anywhere in the constitution, nore the first four or five in the popular set of ten commandments. They're advocating the government rule by a more fascist ideological standpoint.
They know that in the late 1700s the country was 99% Christian. They also know how passionate religious people are about their belief. Promote it? They'd DIE for it in a second! Even now, with no fear of persecution for a "free love" lifestyle, same sex relationship, having multiple abortions, using birth control, enjoying pornography, cohabitating out of wedlock, premarital sex, divorces, you name it!...the country is STILL nearly 80% Christian!
So what, GldnRule?! Stop it with your lambasting ignorance of how government and religion operate. The very beauty of a Republic is that it can be adapted to fit a wide breadth of principles and can change according to the times. Our Founding Fathers saw that and were obviously astute enough to realize that the way things were in 1776 would not always be the same.
Religion refuses to change. It continually perpetuates the same ideas over and over again no matter how damaging to other people, discriminatory of others, or controlling of people it becomes. That principle in itself does not bode well for people's right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. If you want background on the phrase life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, read John Locke's Second Treatise of Government. I also gave it a brief analysis on one of my blogs prior to our "socialist" health care plan being voted upon.
If I were a Christian, if every single person in this country was a Christian, I still would want to have a secular government. You and I both know the long track record religion has when it interferes or injects itself with politics.
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Originally Posted by GldnRule
But these people in the throes of "little man syndrome" will point to what "the documents" say as PROOF of how it was.
Funny though...when Christians break out their "documents" (the Bible) and point to it as evidence of how things are...the Atheists scoff and bluster about how you can't go by something written by "men with an agenda". And I agree with them on that...but hold them to the same assessment of the "Founding Fathers", and the "Founding Documents"
The major difference, GldnRule, is that our Founding Fathers took the very best examples of governments, philosophy of governments, and the totality of human knowledge - up to that point in time, and applied it to best formulate the documents which founded this country. Indeed, those very documents laid the groundwork for our country as a Republic. It lays the groundwork for every freedom we enjoy. On the basis of it alone, the premise of the original Constitution being rather simple and stable without all the extras, it's a pretty good foundational basis. Like the Bible, it does have many interpretations as Supreme Court rulings throughout our nations' history have shown.
Not to mention that due to the nature of the way things are in this country... You cannot present a case of objection in a court of law without it meeting some sort of Constitutional criteria. Whether you like it or not, the fact remains that every Court (especially at the Federal level) looks at the Constitutionality of the objection or motion for complaint. And again, nowhere do we require that our laws meet Biblical "standards" - only Constitutional ones. Perhaps that should clue us in to the founding nature of our country???
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Originally Posted by GldnRule
Oooooooh...but we aren't a Christian Nation....noooooooo. They only have a painting depicting the CHRISTIAN BAPTISM of Pocahontas in the rotunda of the Capitol. How rude and insulting to the Native Americans that we stole (mostly by force) this countries land from...and usurped their culture and spirituality. But that is how BLATANTLY the government promotes Christianity. They always did...and they always will. Why? Because...like it or not...right or wrong...good or bad...this WAS, IS, and is ALWAYS GOING TO BE a Christian Nation. Founded and perpetuated on Christian Principles.
This proves absolutely nothing, GldnRule, except for the fact that representatives of our government have the same problem separating their politics from religion as you do! I am not so dumb to think that people will vote based on purely political reasons while ignoring their religious reasons. That alone indicates that religious people will vote for candidates who keep the closest semblance of their religion in mind. That is how nutcases like Mike Huckabee and Sarah Palin emerge onto the scene in our government. Just because people cannot isolate their religion and political philosophies and vote for candidates who inject this crap into our laws does not mean that we are a nation founded upon those principles!
I have already asked once before... Find something, anything, in the framework of our nation's official founding that espouses, builds upon, or acknowledges Christianity as the foundational basis for this country. You won't find any because none exist. Furthermore... you have yet to explain to me what Christian principles this country was founded on and exactly how those "principles" are solely and exclusively Christian.
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Originally Posted by GldnRule
Regardless of what those that adhere to minority fringe concepts try to say out of frustration for the plight of their platform.
Bottom Line: Those that have a serious aversion to Christianity...won't be very happy here.
Read more history, GldnRule. No movement for freedom begins overnight with everyone quickly adopting new stances. The women's suffrage movement certainly didn't happen overnight. The equality of races took over 100 years to accomplish before it had enough supporters to back it. The same goes for the gay rights movement (which propped up somewhere in the 60's or 70's). And, guess what, GldnRule? Every single one of those movements has been viciously opposed by none other than... Guess who?
Religious types like GldRule always ignore what the U.S. Constitution actually says in favor of what their pastor tells them it says. Neither the constitution nor the preamble nor the Bill of Rights say that life, liberty and pursuit of happiness are exclusive to god believers. What they also ignore is that there are several sets of commanments that they are supposed to follow. Case in point, I don't see Exodus 34:13-14 anywhere in the constitution, nore the first four or five in the popular set of ten commandments. They're advocating the government rule by a more fascist ideological standpoint.
I don't have a pastor, nor do I belong to any church or religious organization. A God entity as source/creator of everything...and the legendary Jesus as our perfect example of how to be...that's IT.
Citing "the documents" AGAIN! Like "the documents" for anything are always the way it is. We've never seen men ever write one thing and then do another...now have we? All of us are created equal...that's what "the documents" said. Oh, but wait! Only if you were MALE and WHITE. And the Constitution isn't followed in lots of cases...Not everything is allowed to "pursue happiness"...only what THEY decided THEY like. Wanna pursue happiness drinking booze and smoking cigarettes...fine. Wanna pursue happiness snorting cocaine...you're arrested. They have twisted those documents around so bad...it's a joke. ANYTHING is "speech"...even teenage girls showing their genitals to the public. If you are in the womb...it's NOT you. Don't mix religion and government...but swear on the Bible in court before you testify...and put "God" all over EVERYTHING governmental. Are you a religious organization?...then REJOICE, you don't have to pay taxes!...they'd throw YOU in prison for that, but not the Priest...the LAW says they're special! The list is endless.
Of course, the Atheists quote Jefferson...like he was the only guy there ever was. Plenty of very religious quotes by him too...but they ignore them. Just like when I say..."The world marks time by the birth of Jesus Christ by using that for the date"...some dupe will always crawl out of the woodwork and use the rare exception to argue against the norm.
In one post an Atheists will complain the POTUS Bush said he prayed and God told him to go to war in the middle east (our longest war EVER)...but then post that it isn't a Christian Nation. The Fundies arguing the Noah flood are as credible.
GET OVER IT....This country WAS, and STILL IS a Christian Nation! Just because Atheists don't like it...doesn't change that reality...and grasping at straws won't change that it was/is!
I'll not debate it further...it's like arguing with those that say evolution doesn't exist.
Well I'm going to throw a monkey wrench into this whole thing about this country being founded on the Christian religion, it's untrue. The principles of this country was founded on a little-known document that has lasted for some 500 to 600 years and was originated by people that the European ancestors mistakenly considered as savages. The document is called The Constitution of the Iroquois Confederacy. And here's a copy of it for you to read.Modern History Sourcebook: The Constitution of the Iroquois Confederacy, now I'm also going to give you a copy of our Constitution and our Bill of Rights and I'm sure you will see the similarities in these documents, take the time to read, learn and be educated, so that you won't be so ignorant. U.S. CONSTITUTION,Bill of Rights and Later Amendments,.... you will note that Christianity has nothing to do with it.
Well I'm going to throw a monkey wrench into this whole thing about this country being founded on the Christian religion, it's untrue. The principles of this country was founded on a little-known document that has lasted for some 500 to 600 years and was originated by people that the European ancestors mistakenly considered as savages. The document is called The Constitution of the Iroquois Confederacy. And here's a copy of it for you to read.Modern History Sourcebook: The Constitution of the Iroquois Confederacy, now I'm also going to give you a copy of our Constitution and our Bill of Rights and I'm sure you will see the similarities in these documents, take the time to read, learn and be educated, so that you won't be so ignorant. U.S. CONSTITUTION,Bill of Rights and Later Amendments,.... you will note that Christianity has nothing to do with it.
I will not debate you ptsum...for you have taught me something.
It troubles me to see what you have made me aware of. It puts in the front of my mind that anywhere, anytime, a people that are living and thriving as a civilization, have others come along and persecute them, and steal from them, and usurp their culture and spirituality in order to replace it with their own, it is a terrible thing.
THAT is the document that should stand. And, in a perfected world, we would give control of this country back to the people it was taken from.
I've always wanted to join in the sacred circle...you created a beautiful, wonderful thing...and I see how much it uplifts those that enter it...but my faults are great and many...and I would not want to compromise or diminish it. Though my prayers are with you and all who are there.
I always appreciate the opportunity to gain knowledge...and now know that the first founding of this land was NOT based on Christianity at all. It was presumptuous of me to not consider that there were earlier Native American documents that preceded those now in force...as well as the original custom, culture, and spirituality of the premier founders. It just shows how arrogant and clueless we (I) have become.
I will not debate you ptsum...for you have taught me something.
It troubles me to see what you have made me aware of. It puts in the front of my mind that anywhere, anytime, a people that are living and thriving as a civilization, have others come along and persecute them, and steal from them, and usurp their culture and spirituality in order to replace it with their own, it is a terrible thing.
THAT is the document that should stand. And, in a perfected world, we would give control of this country back to the people it was taken from.
I've always wanted to join in the sacred circle...you created a beautiful, wonderful thing...and I see how much it uplifts those that enter it...but my faults are great and many...and I would not want to compromise or diminish it. Though my prayers are with you and all who are there.
I always appreciate the opportunity to gain knowledge...and now know that the first founding of this land was NOT based on Christianity at all. It was presumptuous of me to not consider that there were earlier Native American documents that preceded those now in force...as well as the original custom, culture, and spirituality of the premier founders. It just shows how arrogant and clueless we (I) have become.
GldnRule, I have read many of your posts and have learned to respect your opinion in a few of them, it takes a big person to admit that they are mistaken and an even bigger one to admit they have learned from that mistake and I mean that with no disrespect to you. My purpose for posting the information that I did is to educate and to make all realize that we are all the same regardless of what our beliefs are. Any time that you decide to sit with us in the sacred circle, you will be more than welcome as for everyone who does sit with us, there is much wisdom that sits within that circle, we learn and teach each other and respect each other for who we are.osay
GldnRule, I have read many of your posts and have learned to respect your opinion in a few of them, it takes a big person to admit that they are mistaken and an even bigger one to admit they have learned from that mistake and I mean that with no disrespect to you. My purpose for posting the information that I did is to educate and to make all realize that we are all the same regardless of what our beliefs are. Any time that you decide to sit with us in the sacred circle, you will be more than welcome as for everyone who does sit with us, there is much wisdom that sits within that circle, we learn and teach each other and respect each other for who we are.osay
ptsum...it is a rare thing in life to gain knowledge that not only educates you, but "moves" you, and "strikes to the heart", as well. It was that way with what I learned from your posting today. Here I was...going on, and on, and on...and saying nothing that had any truth or merit. Truth is important to me...and you fed me some I did not have...and was in need of. That doesn't happen often in the life of an adult...and when it does, we should always be grateful. I am uplifted...because now I know when I speak on the subject...it will be from a position of knowledge and truth...not blind ignorance, which is all I had before.
I live up on a mountain...in upstate NY, one mile from the Hudson River, just above a town named Poughkeepsie (Derivative of the Iroquois word, U-puku-ipi-sing: "the reed-covered lodge by the little-water place") in the VERY AREA covered in The Constitution of the Iroquois Confederacy. The land my house sits on, and other land I own...is that very land! Of all the areas around here, the hunters all entreat me to hunt on my property. It has three spring-fed ponds and hardwood forest with lots of oak, hickory, and black-walnut trees that provide nuts for forage for the animals...so it is TEEMING with game of all types. White-tail deer, turkey, partridge, geese, ducks, rabbits, etc abound. On the south side (away from the typical wind direction) of the mountain, there are cliffs, with natural depressions at the base...I found an arrowhead there and I'm sure the Iroquois had a settlement at that location...because of the shelter the cliffs provided, and the game and year-round flowing springs. Your link in your post literally "hit home"...to finish reading it, I had to wipe the tears from my eyes.
Thank-you, I owe you a debt of gratitude. I will enter the sacred circle tonight and pray for the peace, contentment, and well being, of you and all there...as well as for, and to, the Spirit of those great men. Know that the prayer will be coming from someone living on, and cherishing, the very land of those wise, gifted, and brilliant Iroquois men that founded this country. It now has all that much more special a meaning. Blessings to you.
GldnRule, I am humbled by your response and I thank you.
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health care plan being voted upon.
