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This is a video worth watching. Despite the tendency to place emphasis on what was indeed a military blitzkrieg by the followers of Muhammad, backed up (at least later) by a religious indoctrination that did what the Nazis could not - turn the conquered peoples into copies of themselves, it makes points that are indeed not given weight in history. Rome did not fall - it became the property of the Germanic peoples. The effect was a bit like Rome's conquest of the Greek world. They did not destroy it - they adopted it.
The dark ages are not entirely down to the Muslims. It had begin in Europe with the division of the Roman empire and the weakness of the rival emperors. Rome vanished here in Britain and we never had Muslims here. Yet it did indeed take advantage of the decline of Rome - and decline there was, and that mainly due to Christianity which did not care for pagan wisdom. The muslims capitalized on this very effectively, but they were not the cause of it.
There was a time when the Muslim world did indeed become the centre of learning and indeed tolerance, though the peripheries were still conquering just as before. Then it has a fundamentalist transformation and all that was gone.
Today, at least until recently, Christianity has indeed been the most expansionist religion of them al. Islam has learned a lot from the methods, but the nations are no longer weak and they are not easy meat for Jihad any more. So they have to rely on other methods, of which missionary work is just one.
I believe people are people. We will always see bad people doing bad things. Some of them may be religious, some not.
Agreed.
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
Having said that, I do not believe we'll see true morality without God. Mind you, I'm specifying a difference between religion and people actually devoted to God. There is a difference.
Well you're specifying two differences actually:
1) "True" morality vs morality that is in some way false or invalid / doesn't count
2) The Religious vs True Believers
I suspect you would not make either assertion unless you believed there was a way to tell one from the other that was fairly cut-and-dried and objective -- to you in any case.
How do you tell the difference in some way that I or any other observer could usefully distinguish from "those who agree with BF about morality or religion, vs those who do not agree"?
By saying that they can be forgiven and granted eternal life? By suggesting we should love one another to the point where we'd be willing to lay down our lives for them?
You say they need to be "forgiven" because they are, in your mind, inherently in need of "forgiveness." In your mind, they are fundamentally defective until you, the Good Christian, make them one of your own. They are fundamentally one of the "Bad Guys" until you make them one of the "Good Guys." And if they don't convert to Christianity they deserve eternal punishment in hell, because they refused to become one of the Good Guys.
In other words, all non-Christians are fundamentally defective and inferior until they convert. That mentality is the *perfect* rationalization for conquering and subjugating whole nations and continents. Islam as a similar rationalization system and has also been highly successful at conquering large parts of the world.
It's why Christianity and Islam, when they get political hegemony, are so dangerous.
You say they need to be "forgiven" because they are, in your mind, inherently in need of "forgiveness."
We all are.
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In your mind, they are fundamentally defective until you, the Good Christian, make them one of your own.
No. I don't save anyone. That's all God's job.
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They are fundamentally one of the "Bad Guys" until you make them one of the "Good Guys." And if they don't convert to Christianity they deserve eternal punishment in hell, because they refused to become one of the Good Guys.
In other words, all non-Christians are fundamentally defective and inferior until they convert. That mentality is the *perfect* rationalization for conquering and subjugating whole nations and continents. Islam as a similar rationalization system and has also been highly successful at conquering large parts of the world.
It's why Christianity and Islam, when they get political hegemony, are so dangerous.
Likewise, there are several militaristic atheists that post on these forums that are quite upset about the fact that some people believe in God, and they will do all they can to reverse that. That's why the FFRF exists...because Dan Barker was disillusioned when the radical charismatic teachings he was taught didnt' pan out. So he thinks all Christians are evil.
The difference between us and Islam, and secular atheism is that we don't kill people for not converting. Yes, there are some that do it in the name of Christianity, but they are certainly not doing that according to any teaching of Jesus or the apostles.
The difference between us and Islam, and secular atheism is that we don't kill people for not converting. Yes, there are some that do it in the name of Christianity, but they are certainly not doing that according to any teaching of Jesus or the apostles.
1. The idea that we all need to be forgiven is one opinion in the world. It is not a universal opinion. It seems to be a widely held opinion of those in religions where the mean theme is guilt and punishment. Not all religions are like that.
2. I happen to know quite a few Muslims. None of them have killed anyone for not converting...either. But the religion, just as is much of Christianity, seems to be about battles and death.
No we are not. Not in the way Christain doctrine has it.
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No. I don't save anyone. That's all God's job.
No. it's yours, or rather, the job of the Church (the one you believe in) Because despite claims about what is supposedly written on all our hearts, if the truth had just been given to a handful of Jews, there would be no Christianity, no Church and no forgiveness. Thus the need to convert or indoctrinate from Birth. This is the job of the church and its' believers. It's your job, and you are here doing it. So don't tell it "It's not you job'.
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Likewise, there are several militaristic atheists that post on these forums that are quite upset about the fact that some people believe in God, and they will do all they can to reverse that. That's why the FFRF exists...because Dan Barker was disillusioned when the radical charismatic teachings he was taught didnt' pan out. So he thinks all Christians are evil.
The difference between us and Islam, and secular atheism is that we don't kill people for not converting. Yes, there are some that do it in the name of Christianity, but they are certainly not doing that according to any teaching of Jesus or the apostles.
I sometimes marvel as the tortured lies and misrepresentations that Christian evangelists will resort to in order to besmirch the opposition, apparently in the hope that, if you can disprove the rival religious claims, that leaves Christianity as the only claim to be believed.
No we are not. Not in the way Christain doctrine has it.
Your denial of sin does not mean sin exists anymore than the flat-earthers are correct in their denial of a round planet.
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No. it's yours, or rather, the job of the Church (the one you believe in) Because despite claims about what is supposedly written on all our hearts, if the truth had just been given to a handful of Jews, there would be no Christianity, no Church and no forgiveness. Thus the need to convert or indoctrinate from Birth. This is the job of the church and its' believers. It's your job, and you are here doing it. So don't tell it "It's not you job'.
No...it really is God that changes hearts and it's God that saves, not us. We are the messengers, and we are to go and preach the Gospel, but it's God that saves. If you don't believe, I can't force you. And I'm sorry if there have been others that tried. I really am.
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I sometimes marvel as the tortured lies and misrepresentations that Christian evangelists will resort to in order to besmirch the opposition, apparently in the hope that, if you can disprove the rival religious claims, that leaves Christianity as the only claim to be believed.
Remember, you're the one who is on a religious message board talking bad about religion.
1. The idea that we all need to be forgiven is one opinion in the world. It is not a universal opinion. It seems to be a widely held opinion of those in religions where the mean theme is guilt and punishment. Not all religions are like that.
Consensus does not mean truth.
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2. I happen to know quite a few Muslims. None of them have killed anyone for not converting...either. But the religion, just as is much of Christianity, seems to be about battles and death.
I also know some Muslims. Very nice people. They don't want to kill anyone, either. There sure are a lot that do, though. The religion could certainly be said to teach it. Is that true Islam? Maybe...maybe not. But fact is, there are countries that are led by radical Muslims that do toss gay people off buildings.
There have also been wars fought, and populations oppressed by secular atheists, trying to stamp out any notion of God. Heck, the atheist's dream, North Korea, isn't doing so well right now.
Yes--bad people will use any means they can to achieve power. Religious or not.
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I sometimes marvel as the tortured lies and misrepresentations that Christian evangelists will resort to in order to besmirch the opposition, apparently in the hope that, if you can disprove the rival religious claims, that leaves Christianity as the only claim to be believed.
