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Old 03-22-2019, 03:19 PM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,081 posts, read 20,540,275 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
That's a good distinction. But even that is something the person themselves would have to determine.
We looked at Ray Comfort's methods earlier today. The problem there is that only One side is given, and it is not exactly scrupulous in presenting the case.

Many of the targets have better things to do with their time - as CC said -than argue about Non -existent gods. This makes them easy meat for the evangelical packages.

The way I see it is that we spend our time making the Other side available, so they won't have to spend Their time doing it.
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Old 03-22-2019, 04:46 PM
 
63,485 posts, read 39,770,989 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
One thing I like about Shirina is a couple of posts from her, and I can take the day off and do something else.
She is a marvel of intellectual prowess. I wish the one and only REAL God had her on its side. The primitive versions are easy enough for the lesser mortals to refute. It is almost a waste of her talents.
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Old 03-22-2019, 06:14 PM
 
28,432 posts, read 11,500,449 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
She is a marvel of intellectual prowess. I wish the one and only REAL God had her on its side. The primitive versions are easy enough for the lesser mortals to refute. It is almost a waste of her talents.
believe it or not, she is on its side mystic.
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Old 03-22-2019, 09:00 PM
 
2,512 posts, read 3,039,919 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
the last thing I want to do with my gift - my very temporary gift - is to waste it by worshiping make-believe gods.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
One thing I like about Shirina is a couple of posts from her, and I can take the day off and do something else.
Ya know, it's not 100% certain what happened to the Golden Plates after Joseph Smith translated them, in a report from the "Journal Of Discourses" on June 17, 1877 Brigham Young said the following:

"When Joseph got the plates, the Angel instructed him to carry them back to Hill Cumorah, which he did... the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room... and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably man wagon loads; they were piled up in the corners and along the walls"

Now Shirina and Trans, if I were to hand one of you a metal detector and the other ground penetrating radar, and place you both at the Hill on Tran's day off, can you both wholeheartedly and honestly tell me you would not take at least one sweep of the Hill?....

Last edited by ShouldIMoveOrStayPut...?; 03-22-2019 at 09:02 PM.. Reason: Spelling Error
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Old 03-23-2019, 03:24 AM
 
6,324 posts, read 4,302,933 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
That's a good distinction. But even that is something the person themselves would have to determine.
If their heads are so full of enculturation, brainwashing, and assimilation - well - it means they were incapable of making an honest determination. They believed what they believed from the very start. In other words, they never made the *choice* to believe.

Despite how baffling it is to me, I have a little more sympathy to those who came to religion at an older age, preferably in adulthood - and even more sympathy for those who converted from atheism to religion (even though that's even more baffling to me).

The reason is because these people would be old enough, theoretically worldly enough, and hopefully knowledgeable enough to make a conscious choice to believe in some deity or other.

I've said this twice in two other posts, but I'll repeat it here since it's relevant:

In a scientific poll done a few years ago, 400 former Christians were asked if they regretted deconverting to atheism. Only one - count 'em - one person regretted their decision. Now, if 399 people out of 400 were satisfied and even happy getting away from religion - shouldn't that tell us something?

Since when does any poll, even with a binary answer, have an almost unanimous result?

Which is why I say that a lot of people in *this* country are pulled into religion - especially the more militant sort from fundamentalist Islam to fundevangelist Christianity - long before any conscious choice can be made. And when they do manage to make a choice later in life, those that leave behind religion seem awfully grateful they did.

Plus, if you count the multitudes of former believers, now atheists, who call in to various atheist podcasts and talk at length about their deconversion process and how happy and free they feel now that they've shed the shackles of religion - well - that's why I believe that a lot of people really are wasting their time praying to imaginary deities. I'm not saying they all are - but I wonder just how many people would be believers if they had been given an honest choice.
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Old 03-23-2019, 03:36 AM
 
6,324 posts, read 4,302,933 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShouldIMoveOrStayPut...? View Post
Now Shirina and Trans, if I were to hand one of you a metal detector and the other ground penetrating radar, and place you both at the Hill on Tran's day off, can you both wholeheartedly and honestly tell me you would not take at least one sweep of the Hill?....
Oh, I probably would.

Not because I would expect to find anything more than a few quarters, some rusty cans, and some natural ore - but because it would be one more bullet in my ammunition loadout against religion when no cave or golden plates were found.

Note, however, I said "probably."

I would have to think about it. Oh, not because I have any doubt that nothing would be found.

Rather, I would loathe a scenario where the metal detector did detect *something* deep in the hill - so deep that excavating it would be cost prohibitive. Or, even more likely, I would call for an excavation to see what's there and I would be blocked by the very church that I may be helping. Namely because they would know that nothing is really down there, but they could use the vague, indistinct finding as PROOF that the plates are there. That signal from the metal detector saying *something* is down there would be all that was needed for some Mormons to dance around claiming the golden plates were found - and using the old 'argument from ignorance' would exclaim, "Of course the plates were found. What else could that signal mean?!?"

And then there would be this sudden religious revival based on a single beep from a metal detector - because that's what religion does. It would take a blip on sonar or a beep from a metal detector and turn it into the biggest religious coup since the Book of Mormon hit the printing press. These days, religions are less concerned about honesty and living up to their own moral code than they are about survival and self-preservation. If they have to lie, exaggerate, or hyperbolize to do it, then so be it.
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Old 03-23-2019, 06:23 AM
 
2,512 posts, read 3,039,919 times
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^^^Thank you for the detailed response Shirina.

The scenario you describe may well be what would happen if there were any readings on the detector and/or radar. I suppose we would only know if the LDS would allow excavation if the scenario played out in real life. I wonder if they have performed extensive sweeps/searches of the area.
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Old 03-23-2019, 07:50 AM
 
1,402 posts, read 473,285 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
....The reason is because these people would be old enough, theoretically worldly enough, and hopefully knowledgeable enough to make a conscious choice to believe in some deity or other.
....... [CLIPPED].... but I wonder just how many people would be believers if they had been given an honest choice.
There is a video of Ricky Gervais making (what I think are very accurate) observations about religion. He suggests that, if people were not exposed to anything, including theism or atheism, until the age of 20... and then allowed to make their own choices... the world would be a vastly different place. I have no doubt that is true, and that the billions claimed in the race for numbers would shrink dramatically.

Unfortunately, there is a reason why religions aim to get 'em while they're young.
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Old 03-23-2019, 08:05 AM
 
1,402 posts, read 473,285 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShouldIMoveOrStayPut...? View Post
Now Shirina and Trans, if I were to hand one of you a metal detector and the other ground penetrating radar, and place you both at the Hill on Tran's day off, can you both wholeheartedly and honestly tell me you would not take at least one sweep of the Hill?....
I am not Shirina or Trans (... perhaps they were singled out as being particularly susceptible to hucksters and charlatans? Yeah, right!)

But I have been to the Hill, and can honestly say I would not take a sweep with that metal detector. For the same reason I would not pick up a shovel to help dig for Noah's Ark on Mount Ararat, or the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Why dignify a hoax (or more charitable, a transparently tall tale)?

Indeed, I now realize in hindsight that my visit to the Hill... complete with video presentations to the captive audience showing angels helping Joe dig for gold, backed up by mystical music... was a crucial step in my own liberation from religion. It became so apparent that anyone could make up anything, no matter how far-fetched, and find people willing to accept the tale and follow him to the promised land... that it really opened my eyes to the entire history of religion(s) on this planet.

Last edited by HeelaMonster; 03-23-2019 at 09:10 AM..
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Old 03-23-2019, 08:09 AM
 
28,432 posts, read 11,500,449 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
If their heads are so full of enculturation, brainwashing, and assimilation - well - it means they were incapable of making an honest determination. They believed what they believed from the very start. In other words, they never made the *choice* to believe.

Despite how baffling it is to me, I have a little more sympathy to those who came to religion at an older age, preferably in adulthood - and even more sympathy for those who converted from atheism to religion (even though that's even more baffling to me).

The reason is because these people would be old enough, theoretically worldly enough, and hopefully knowledgeable enough to make a conscious choice to believe in some deity or other.

I've said this twice in two other posts, but I'll repeat it here since it's relevant:

In a scientific poll done a few years ago, 400 former Christians were asked if they regretted deconverting to atheism. Only one - count 'em - one person regretted their decision. Now, if 399 people out of 400 were satisfied and even happy getting away from religion - shouldn't that tell us something?

Since when does any poll, even with a binary answer, have an almost unanimous result?

Which is why I say that a lot of people in *this* country are pulled into religion - especially the more militant sort from fundamentalist Islam to fundevangelist Christianity - long before any conscious choice can be made. And when they do manage to make a choice later in life, those that leave behind religion seem awfully grateful they did.

Plus, if you count the multitudes of former believers, now atheists, who call in to various atheist podcasts and talk at length about their deconversion process and how happy and free they feel now that they've shed the shackles of religion - well - that's why I believe that a lot of people really are wasting their time praying to imaginary deities. I'm not saying they all are - but I wonder just how many people would be believers if they had been given an honest choice.
I actually feel the same way for those who believed in some of the teachings into their 20's. In fact, older people sometimes choose the lessor of two evils. They don't quite believe the magic stuff but they understand the love, compassion, and improving oneself stuff.

anti-religious/god don't have that. anymore than Fundy theist do.

I don't agree with people being "pulled in". Sometimes they look at both sides and and are forced between the lessor of two evils. I think there are people that can't understand how some of us understand exactly what is being said and still chose another route. They meet that rejection with all sorts of personal emotional justification.
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