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Old 02-04-2018, 07:01 AM
 
10,432 posts, read 4,120,831 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Dude. Existence isn't a being. It's just matter. It can't BE responsible for anything.

.
well, this is a case of either not knowing what one doesn't know or intentionally minimizes, shunning, changing what is going on.

lmao @ "just matter". Their is no matter. which isn't a big deal, but you claim your stance with certaintanty, so I am forced to show you how wrong you are.

Energy is responsible for our "being". energy does work and life is a ton of work happening in a small volume. many molecules in a cell are moving (force applied) across distances. motor proteins are even 'walking" as fast as turbines spin.

we don't know what energy is, so when you make claims about "responsibility", your claim is as good as "their god". Both ignoring what is known or just flat out not knowing.

you just playing word games dude, speaking to a personal experience that you refuse to take responsibility for or blame your loved ones. the exact same thing any fundy does. you pass personal responsibility onto religion and they pass personal responsibility to a book.

I think you two groups should man up and join the rest of us that have to feel bad when we have to make some tough choices.
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Old 02-04-2018, 08:50 AM
 
Location: WV and Eastport, ME
10,250 posts, read 10,366,849 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The positive truth claim is that our reality exists and is the God responsible for everything because it IS responsible for everything. Your response has nothing to do with the existence issue because you can't dispute that so you dispute the myriad beliefs ABOUT the attributes of God posited by humans which are irrelevant.
It is inherently obvious that reality exists. It is not inherently obvious that said reality is the God responsible for anything. Saying that "reality exists and is the God responsible for everything because it IS responsible for everything" is circular reasoning that actually says nothing.

How can a person distinguish reality that is God from reality that is not God because God is a sentient being outside our reality?
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Old 02-04-2018, 09:00 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
15,524 posts, read 6,978,065 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
It is inherently obvious that reality exists. It is not inherently obvious that said reality is the God responsible for anything. Saying that "reality exists and is the God responsible for everything because it IS responsible for everything" is circular reasoning that actually says nothing.

How can a person distinguish reality that is God from reality that is not God because God is a sentient being outside our reality?
I think what Mystic is saying is that it is a matter of what label you use. To him it IS "God" and to others it may be "universe." I think the cogent point is his belief that whichever term you use a "consciousness" of that entity exists. This is his conclusion however well or poorly you think it is supported.
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Old 02-04-2018, 12:36 PM
 
37,429 posts, read 25,189,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
It is inherently obvious that reality exists. It is not inherently obvious that said reality is the God responsible for anything. Saying that "reality exists and is the God responsible for everything because it IS responsible for everything" is circular reasoning that actually says nothing.
The sticking point seems to be the word "responsible." The existence of reality is why we and everything exists. We are part of the whole and our attributes define in part the attributes of the whole.There are no "separate things." Without actually experiencing this lack of separateness, I do not know how anyone could come to accept this view unequivocally.
Quote:
How can a person distinguish reality that is God from reality that is not God because God is a sentient being outside our reality?
That is one of the many human concepts of God that is NOT my view. God's consciousness is outside our reality just as our consciousness is outside of our body and brain. This is evidenced by the fact that the constraints and strictures of our reality do not apply to the creations of our consciousness. This is how God is immanent (everything that exists) and transcendent (outside of everything that exists). We are part of how God reproduces His consciousness IMV.
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Old 02-04-2018, 01:41 PM
 
Location: WV and Eastport, ME
10,250 posts, read 10,366,849 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The sticking point seems to be the word "responsible." The existence of reality is why we and everything exists. We are part of the whole and our attributes define in part the attributes of the whole.There are no "separate things." Without actually experiencing this lack of separateness, I do not know how anyone could come to accept this view unequivocally. That is one of the many human concepts of God that is NOT my view. God's consciousness is outside our reality just as our consciousness is outside of our body and brain. This is evidenced by the fact that the constraints and strictures of our reality do not apply to the creations of our consciousness. This is how God is immanent (everything that exists) and transcendent (outside of everything that exists). We are part of how God reproduces His consciousness IMV.
I see nothing in what you said to support the idea that reality is God. The fact that reality exists does not in any way provide a reason for humans to exist. The fact that reality exists only confirms that reality exists. That's pretty much like saying the Universe is God (which, by the way, is indistinguishable from a Universe that is not God).
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Old 02-04-2018, 01:51 PM
 
37,429 posts, read 25,189,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
I think what Mystic is saying is that it is a matter of what label you use. To him it IS "God" and to others it may be "universe." I think the cogent point is his belief that whichever term you use a "consciousness" of that entity exists. This is his conclusion however well or poorly you think it is supported.
Well said, Nate. The fact that our only perspective is from WITHIN the very "body" of God means we are as handicapped as one of our own cells would be in trying to understand its relationship to us and all the myriad biota that comprise us.
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Old 02-04-2018, 01:55 PM
 
37,429 posts, read 25,189,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The sticking point seems to be the word "responsible." The existence of reality is why we and everything exists. We are part of the whole and our attributes define in part the attributes of the whole.There are no "separate things." Without actually experiencing this lack of separateness, I do not know how anyone could come to accept this view unequivocally. That is one of the many human concepts of God that is NOT my view. God's consciousness is outside our reality just as our consciousness is outside of our body and brain. This is evidenced by the fact that the constraints and strictures of our reality do not apply to the creations of our consciousness. This is how God is immanent (everything that exists) and transcendent (outside of everything that exists). We are part of how God reproduces His consciousness IMV.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
I see nothing in what you said to support the idea that reality is God. The fact that reality exists does not in any way provide a reason for humans to exist. The fact that reality exists only confirms that reality exists. That's pretty much like saying the Universe is God (which, by the way, is indistinguishable from a Universe that is not God).
I acknowledge in the bold the difficulty that exists in accepting there are no "separate things." Without that realization, my perspective is virtually impossible to understand. Your concern over "distinguishability" is probative.
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Old 02-04-2018, 02:04 PM
 
10,432 posts, read 4,120,831 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
I see nothing in what you said to support the idea that reality is God. The fact that reality exists does not in any way provide a reason for humans to exist. The fact that reality exists only confirms that reality exists. That's pretty much like saying the Universe is God (which, by the way, is indistinguishable from a Universe that is not God).
one small point. You were going to be here as soon as it went boom. you and reality were all going to be here after the first minute.

There is no way the universe was going to be here without us.
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Old 02-15-2018, 10:02 AM
 
2,379 posts, read 2,603,721 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
I made a considered choice some years ago whether to self-identify as atheist.

I am an agnostic atheist.

Atheism does not require that one be omniscient. It is a belief position, not a knowledge position. I simply see no valid reason to believe theism is likely to be true. I do not KNOW that it ISN'T true. I can't, because its standard formulation is non-falsifiable to begin with. No supportable knowledge claim can be taken either for OR against theism.

Agnosticism is a knowledge claim. I am an agnostic in the original, Huxlian sense: I not only don't know if there's any deities; I don't believe it is knowABLE. For two reasons. First, the above-mentioned non-falsifiability. Secondly, the lack of a coherent definition for "god". No one has yet proposed a definition for a god that can really be examined, or indeed, distinguished from the definer's imagination.
Based on your own self-identification, you are Agnostic, not Atheist. That is why we can have logical discussions.
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Old 02-15-2018, 10:05 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
18,826 posts, read 8,836,703 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSoul View Post
Based on your own self-identification, you are Agnostic, not Atheist. That is why we can have logical discussions.
See. Right there is part of the problem. Too many of you Christians want to slap a label on someone that you think is right, instead of just letting the person self-identify. You don't know your place.
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