In an era where people have confidence in nearly nothing, can faith make a comeback?

[mordant]

Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801

Good point.

There are people like me who are theologically liberal but mostly despise the political machine on all sides. We're not going to fight for something like basic universal income because it is not going to happen. But we'll feed and clothe and house the people who don't have those things because of the wealth inequality.

Nothing beats practical good works, whatever the motivation.

I don't think universal basic income is un-doable BTW. It is rapidly gaining currency (pun intended). One reason is that technology is reducing the amount of necessary work there is to do, and people are catching onto the fact that the wealthy have been siphoning off the additional productivity for over a generation now rather than sharing it with all. UBI is one way to correct that. The only open question is whether it will become a way to keep the poor, poor ... there are ways to implement it to widen rather than narrow income inequality.

[Shirina]

Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801

^OK, Shirina, I don't argue with anything you said up there...but since you quoted my post...

I was merely pointing out the subset of liberal Christians who DO speak up against social injustice because of their beliefs.

How do you think gay people are getting married in churches in droves if the people in the churches themselves didn't speak up? The national Episcopal church gave up a million-dollar deposit on principle some years ago on their planned conference venue when it turned out the place practiced discrimination and racism against black people, both in employment and their clients. Other churches are giving sanctuary or providing legal services to illegal immigrants.

As mentioned already, there were Christians at Standing Rock because of their beliefs. There are ALWAYS Christians sending letters to Congress, calling representatives, sometimes marching, in support of "liberal" issues.

I get that we aren't the majority, but pretending we don't exist isn't OK, either. It's sad enough that the conservative Christians dislike us, but it seems hypocritical for non-theists to dismiss people who are of like mind regarding social issues just because they ARE theists.

Whoops I actually quoted the wrong post ... I thought something was odd. I wanted to make a certain point and realized I couldn't with your post, so I just assumed I read it wrong. Yeah, morphine ... it doesn't do my brain any favors.

But, just so you know -- I don't dismiss the PEOPLE who are of like-mind on social issues and yet who are theists. Not at all. I say, "come on in, all are welcome!"

I emphasized the word "people" because I think those such as yourself would be of like-mind with or without your theistic beliefs. I've read many of your posts and I know you're one of the good (in my view) theists out there.

I'm thinking more of the all-too-numerous Christian and Catholic schools out there who not only brainwash children into religion before they're old enough to investigate on their own and make their own choices, MANY of these schools also brainwash these kids into adopting far-right, ultra-conservative political ideologies. In addition they blame the country's woes on liberals, atheists, feminists, and, of course, the "Jews" of conservative America: homosexuals.

These schools are like little Trump-supporter factories that will churn out the next generation of "angry old white men" who are indoctrinated to be against universal health care, who will continue to fight the good fight to put forced prayer back into public schools, etc. etc.

Teaching kids about religion at a religious school is one thing -- but using their authoritarian approach to education in order to shape their political views is nothing less than abuse, as far as I'm concerned. ACE (Accelerated Christian Education) program is awful for teaching kids why we shouldn't have universal health care, that the United Nations is a tool of the Devil, even that black people were put into slavery by God to humble them, Martin Luther King was a communist, that the Loch Ness Monster is real (because it's an argument against evolution somehow), the earth is only 6,000 years old (of course), and a whole lot of other rubbish.

[Arach Angle]

Originally Posted by Shirina

Whoops I actually quoted the wrong post ... I thought something was odd. I wanted to make a certain point and realized I couldn't with your post, so I just assumed I read it wrong. Yeah, morphine ... it doesn't do my brain any favors.

But, just so you know -- I don't dismiss the PEOPLE who are of like-mind on social issues and yet who are theists. Not at all. I say, "come on in, all are welcome!"

I emphasized the word "people" because I think those such as yourself would be of like-mind with or without your theistic beliefs. I've read many of your posts and I know you're one of the good (in my view) theists out there.

I'm thinking more of the all-too-numerous Christian and Catholic schools out there who not only brainwash children into religion before they're old enough to investigate on their own and make their own choices, MANY of these schools also brainwash these kids into adopting far-right, ultra-conservative political ideologies. In addition they blame the country's woes on liberals, atheists, feminists, and, of course, the "Jews" of conservative America: homosexuals.

These schools are like little Trump-supporter factories that will churn out the next generation of "angry old white men" who are indoctrinated to be against universal health care, who will continue to fight the good fight to put forced prayer back into public schools, etc. etc.

Teaching kids about religion at a religious school is one thing -- but using their authoritarian approach to education in order to shape their political views is nothing less than abuse, as far as I'm concerned. ACE (Accelerated Christian Education) program is awful for teaching kids why we shouldn't have universal health care, that the United Nations is a tool of the Devil, even that black people were put into slavery by God to humble them, Martin Luther King was a communist, that the Loch Ness Monster is real (because it's an argument against evolution somehow), the earth is only 6,000 years old (of course), and a whole lot of other rubbish.

your mixing statements about god and how the universe and politics.

aligning with "work hard, earn ones keep, and one is responsible for ones actions and to help others" is a valid set of memes to align under. making statements about how the universe works and laws based on a statement about no-god or god is not.

we all want universal healthcare but, supporting freeloaders with 300000000 million people is the reality. No limits is not a rational stance.

I am all for more isolationism to help our own first. Make it a lot harder to get in so that we can help our own first. A baby born to an illegal is an illegal itself so that we can help our first. I am also for filming the interactions within inner city schools and suburban schools to see what behaviors are holding back learning.

[auralmack]

Originally Posted by Shirina

To tell the truth as I see it, the only time I ever see people of faith get angry, organize, and demand real change from politicians is when they want their faith to be a codified civil law that everyone must follow regardless of their actual belief system.

I bring this up because using faith -- which ultimately leads to religion -- is inherently authoritarian and fascistic.

You have titled the meaning of the word "Faith" into some catch go phrase "People of Faith."

Using faith? Idea seems to cut two ways, different meanings. Use faith how? Like you say = bad.

What is Faith?
I don't think Love could actually exist without Faith.
Confidence and Trust is what Faith is.

Faith can also mean a Belief.

And Faith is also, things like you say.

But first and foremost, Faith is what you put your confidence and trust in. And faith can lead you away and out of religion; in contrast to the green quote. What have you put your faith into?

Archaic in faith = in truth.
And Archaic: God is the God of truth.
And furthermore; Truth has no religion.
And God looks for such people, "Surely these are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Savior."

And I can understand the dangers you point out but come on...Faith in a Creator? My Confidence and Trust is with the OP. And I see you offer no real alternative? But as for the god you know, sounds like a devil. Where did you find that god or gods? Oh, I know, but my goodness, the word Faith has at least 2 or 3 good sides.

So then it becomes a task of separating the true from the foolishness.

A foundation without faith is what you are striving for?
A foundation without any real faith is what we have now.
No Confidence and Trust in anything. Don't drink the waters. Don't breathe the air.

Daylight, darkness, dusk, and dawn. Four ends of all the earth. Like four wild asses; and days gone by like so many herds of wild horses. These are the four spirits that go forward from before the face of the Lord our God. And I see a faint pale speckled horse running for a new dawn like all hell is on its heels: SSS# = 666# for the buying and selling of merchandise.

And anyone that knows the story in this book knows that the "Terror of God," is Christ recompensing our own doings upon our own heads, reaping as we have sown. But where Mystic has said, "...that much and no more," I fear I heard at end-time "Pay them double!" And according to their deeds were they paid double. And whether it was good or whether it was evil, their reward was doubled. A crises?

I guess I have ideas, visions and dreams based upon these stories I have read.
My faith? more confidence and trust in these things than tilted words and tumbling Babylons.

What is really going on? Why are we killing each other?
What have we sown? Love and truth or lies and deceptions? It's an old story.

[TRANSPONDER]

Originally Posted by auralmack

You have titled the meaning of the word "Faith" into some catch go phrase "People of Faith."

Using faith? Idea seems to cut two ways, different meanings. Use faith how? Like you say = bad.

What is Faith?
I don't think Love could actually exist without Faith.
Confidence and Trust is what Faith is.

Faith can also mean a Belief.

And Faith is also, things like you say.

But first and foremost, Faith is what you put your confidence and trust in. And faith can lead you away and out of religion; in contrast to the green quote. What have you put your faith into?

Archaic in faith = in truth.
And Archaic: God is the God of truth.
And furthermore; Truth has no religion.
And God looks for such people, "Surely these are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Savior."

And I can understand the dangers you point out but come on...Faith in a Creator? My Confidence and Trust is with the OP. And I see you offer no real alternative? But as for the god you know, sounds like a devil. Where did you find that god or gods? Oh, I know, but my goodness, the word Faith has at least 2 or 3 good sides.

So then it becomes a task of separating the true from the foolishness.

A foundation without faith is what you are striving for?
A foundation without any real faith is what we have now.
No Confidence and Trust in anything. Don't drink the waters. Don't breathe the air.

Daylight, darkness, dusk, and dawn. Four ends of all the earth. Like four wild asses; and days gone by like so many herds of wild horses. These are the four spirits that go forward from before the face of the Lord our God. And I see a faint pale speckled horse running for a new dawn like all hell is on its heels: SSS# = 666# for the buying and selling of merchandise.

And anyone that knows the story in this book knows that the "Terror of God," is Christ recompensing our own doings upon our own heads, reaping as we have sown. But where Mystic has said, "...that much and no more," I fear I heard at end-time "Pay them double!" And according to their deeds were they paid double. And whether it was good or whether it was evil, their reward was doubled. A crises?

I guess I have ideas, visions and dreams based upon these stories I have read.
My faith? more confidence and trust in these things than tilted words and tumbling Babylons.

What is really going on? Why are we killing each other?
What have we sown? Love and truth or lies and deceptions? It's an old story.

Several old stories. Generally the religious myths do more harm than good. They can cause conflict, division and oppression, and claim to know what we only guess, and worse, fight the facts that come up that may be different.

There are many religions but only one science. Sure, there is place for fluffy bunnies, and 'I love everybody - I'm high on the spirit' stuff, and speculations are fine, so long as they are not presented as reliable truth, and -worse - unchallengeable truth.

The further believers move away from unquestioned authority, doctrinal finger -pointing and hostility to Others, the better understand we goddless bastards can have with them. But they absolutely have to drop thie belief that, unless Others have the same elevated feelings of confidence in what they believe, they are miserable, deluded, suicidal, if not wicked, harmful and to be lectured and nagged out of relying on what science finds and preferring unverified faith -claims.

This the difference between belief based on validated eviidence and Faith based on almost none. And that's why the Faithful have to stop believing the biggest invalid claim - that Faith somehow makes them better people and in a position to advise others.

[Shirina]

Originally Posted by Arach Angle

your mixing statements about god and how the universe and politics.

aligning with "work hard, earn ones keep, and one is responsible for ones actions and to help others" is a valid set of memes to align under. making statements about how the universe works and laws based on a statement about no-god or god is not.

we all want universal healthcare but, supporting freeloaders with 300000000 million people is the reality. No limits is not a rational stance.

I am all for more isolationism to help our own first. Make it a lot harder to get in so that we can help our own first. A baby born to an illegal is an illegal itself so that we can help our first. I am also for filming the interactions within inner city schools and suburban schools to see what behaviors are holding back learning.

We're the ONLY country that doesn't have universal health care. America is not some exceptional nation where it can't work.

And I'm tired of the "freeloader" argument which essentially says that our national moral stance is to allow tens of thousands to die of treatable conditions, allow many more to live miserably with untreated illnesses because, yeah, we wouldn't want any freeloaders to get health care.

That's our latent Puritan past at work -- the idea that it's better to see innocents suffer than to allow the guilty to get away with something. It's akin to a philosophy that says, "It's better for 10 innocent men to be imprisoned than for one guilty man to go free" -- which is precisely the opposite of what the Founders intended.

Sorry, but if universal health care works across the globe regardless of culture, ethnicity, religion, or government type, it can work here if we wanted it to. Are you aware that Iraqi citizens under Sadam Hussein had free health care? And if they couldn't be treated in Iraq, the government would fly them to London or Paris or wherever they needed to go.

Now, if people living under a brutal dictatorship can get universal health care, should Americans in a free democracy receive anything less?

In addition, some of these religious schools are indoctrinating these kids on political stances, not just religion, and I say that's going a step too far. I'm completely against these schools that are teaching these kids how to be holy warriors for fundamentalist religion and far-right politics while utterly failing to prepare them to be successful in their lives after high school.

Oodles of former students of these schools have said that they really struggled in life because they didn't know jack compared to their public-school-educated peers. They couldn't handle college and many failed or dropped out and they ended up with inferiority complexes because they realized they would be spending the rest of their lives playing "catch-up" with everyone else.

[Freak80]

Originally Posted by Shirina

In addition, some of these religious schools are indoctrinating these kids on political stances, not just religion, and I say that's going a step too far. I'm completely against these schools that are teaching these kids how to be holy warriors for fundamentalist religion and far-right politics while utterly failing to prepare them to be successful in their lives after high school.

Oodles of former students of these schools have said that they really struggled in life because they didn't know jack compared to their public-school-educated peers. They couldn't handle college and many failed or dropped out and they ended up with inferiority complexes because they realized they would be spending the rest of their lives playing "catch-up" with everyone else.

Yes indeed.

The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (LCMS) is one denomination that operates a whole network of those kinds of schools. I attended one K-8. Luckily most are K-8 only, so the LCMS youth still have to go into the outside world for high school. They have a shot at a decent life if they study hard and get into a good college. But it’s an uphill battle all the way, like you say. I’m still clawing my way out of the deep pit of ignorance, fear, and superstition that is the LCMS universe.