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Old 03-19-2008, 06:16 PM
 
46 posts, read 95,453 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
From the time I was little, I would lie awake at night and wonder, Where did God come from? He must have been "born" somehow. From what?

When I asked my mother, "When was God born?" she said, "God has always existed, so God was never born." (Thanks, Mom. I'll send you my therapist bill.)

He had to come from somewhere/something. Right? So...from where? Or what? And what was "there" before God came into being? Was there just...nothing? And how could anything come from nothing? (In fact, it was the "universe--something from nothing" thread that made me think to ask this question.)

I'm not any mainstream religion but I do believe in God. I'm curious what others of any religion or philosophy believe on this.
Time is a dimension of this universe. A creator God, if "He" exists, could certainly exist outside of time making the question immaterial.
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Old 03-19-2008, 06:23 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
6,715 posts, read 12,276,202 times
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Originally Posted by Paleoroundtable View Post
Time is a dimension of this universe. A creator God, if "He" exists, could certainly exist outside of time making the question immaterial.
Errrmmm... The reason time exists is because there is something. Because there is space, matter, "existence" we have time. For something to "exist" there has to be a linearity or progression of time. Saying that there is "something" outside of space and time just doesn't make sense.
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Old 03-19-2008, 06:26 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
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Originally Posted by anomoly View Post
I believe there's alot more layers, with infinite opportunities to learn lessons from Karma. I believe that's what really teaches us about compassion, eternal life, the 10 commandments. I never, for a moment, thought I had to read a book (Bible) to understand how to live!
I feel you, but the Bible does tell us that God has inscribed how to live/morality in the hearts of human beings. For the longest time, God left humankind by itself without any written revelation. This may be one of the reasons Christians hear that personal relationship to God is most important (far above reading the Bible I think). It's just that the Bible seems to give us more of an objective standard for understanding the character of God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anomoly View Post
One last thing I've learned is that 'spiritual understanding' cannot be conveyed by human methods of communication. My revelation was that this is a way for God to ensure he/she/it can never be replaced by religion. In other words, God communicates with us in a way that can't be simply documented for others to understand.
Therefore, ya gotta go directly to God for any real understanding.
But if God is so great and transcends everything, why can't He explain part of this nature to us in a way we can understand, write down and communicate with others about?
I don't think the Bible ever claimed to offer all the answers about God, just that God, in a sense, dumbs Himself down in order to better express himself verbally to humans.
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Old 03-19-2008, 06:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
Errrmmm... The reason time exists is because there is something. Because there is space, matter, "existence" we have time. For something to "exist" there has to be a linearity or progression of time. Saying that there is "something" outside of space and time just doesn't make sense.
Physics shows that time is a property.. the result of the existence of matter. Time exists when matter exists. But God need not be matter. In a montheistic sense, God created matter and the universe. So, time began when God created the universe. Before that, God simply existed... that is in the monotheistic sense.
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Old 03-19-2008, 07:16 PM
 
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Whoah! This thread sure has taken off since I checked last. Thanks for the replies, everybody!

As for the time argument, although I know there's something of an interconnection here, I really wasn't wondering "when" God came from, but "where" and/or "how".

In other words, it doesn't matter whether the event itself loops during the billionth dimension or what-have-you...something happened *to make that happen* no matter how time is construed, and by whom.

I think...
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Old 03-19-2008, 07:22 PM
Status: "Could be worse" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: Las Cruces, New Mexico
510 posts, read 1,309,076 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ainulinale View Post
I feel you, but the Bible does tell us that God has inscribed how to live/morality in the hearts of human beings. For the longest time, God left humankind by itself without any written revelation. This may be one of the reasons Christians hear that personal relationship to God is most important (far above reading the Bible I think). It's just that the Bible seems to give us more of an objective standard for understanding the character of God.
Boy, not in MY experience!

But if God is so great and transcends everything, why can't He explain part of this nature to us in a way we can understand, write down and communicate with others about?
Ah ha ha ha! You missed my point! I don't see that as an oversight. That's how the "Truth" is retained. No matter how well-intended, when something gets passed on, interpreted, partially remembered, IT DILUTES THE TRUTH, just like the telephone game. By the 10th time it's been passed on, it's often not even close to the original message.

I don't think the Bible ever claimed to offer all the answers about God, just that God, in a sense, dumbs Himself down in order to better express himself verbally to humans.
I'd say HUMANS dumbed it down, by thinking it could be passed down in a book.

In Taoism, The Tao refers to 'the way of life', or the 'process underlying the process'.
The first line is:
The Tao that can be named is not the Tao.
In other words, if it can be verbalized, it's not the truth. If it can be 'spoken', then it's not the 'Word'.
Humans don't possess the capacity to translate "spiritual knowledge".
That's why ya gotta go to the Source for Truth. We can barely comprehend it, let alone do it justice in explaining it to someone else.

Hope this doesn't seem hostile. Just expressing my true feelings.
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Old 03-19-2008, 07:30 PM
Status: "Could be worse" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: Las Cruces, New Mexico
510 posts, read 1,309,076 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
Whoah! This thread sure has taken off since I checked last. Thanks for the replies, everybody!

As for the time argument, although I know there's something of an interconnection here, I really wasn't wondering "when" God came from, but "where" and/or "how".

In other words, it doesn't matter whether the event itself loops during the billionth dimension or what-have-you...something happened *to make that happen* no matter how time is construed, and by whom.

I think...
Boy, I'm with you. To all you Physics guys, I'm sure you're saying something important, but I gotta admit,
I just can't get a handle on that "Space & Time" thing. It was like calculus: I can't figure out what a "function" has to do with the equation. I just can't figure out the connection--can't visualize it, can't conceptualize it...one's a graph, one's a mathematical equation! (Good thing I took it Pass or Fail)
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Old 03-19-2008, 08:35 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
2,237 posts, read 6,566,564 times
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Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
Errrmmm... The reason time exists is because there is something. Because there is space, matter, "existence" we have time. For something to "exist" there has to be a linearity or progression of time.
This is both a point and something of a question, not an attack: if we had a perfect crystal at absolute zero, wouldn't we have matter but no time? At least assuming all heat could somehow be removed from the universe, but wait if there was no heat, how could there be any energy, if there was no energy how could there be matter?
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Old 03-19-2008, 08:44 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
2,237 posts, read 6,566,564 times
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Originally Posted by anomoly View Post
I'd say HUMANS dumbed it down, by thinking it could be passed down in a book.

In Taoism, The Tao refers to 'the way of life', or the 'process underlying the process'.
The first line is:
The Tao that can be named is not the Tao.
In other words, if it can be verbalized, it's not the truth. If it can be 'spoken', then it's not the 'Word'.
Humans don't possess the capacity to translate "spiritual knowledge".
That's why ya gotta go to the Source for Truth. We can barely comprehend it, let alone do it justice in explaining it to someone else.

Hope this doesn't seem hostile. Just expressing my true feelings.
Believe me, there are a lot of hostiles on city-data and you are not one of them!

Concerning truth: couldn't we say that "I got out of my bed this morning" is an expression of truth? If this is verbalizing truth, then what separates this propositional truth from the inexpressible truth--aren't they the same in essence? They both describe what is, was or will be.
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Old 03-19-2008, 08:50 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
6,715 posts, read 12,276,202 times
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Originally Posted by ainulinale View Post
This is both a point and something of a question, not an attack: if we had a perfect crystal at absolute zero, wouldn't we have matter but no time? At least assuming all heat could somehow be removed from the universe, but wait if there was no heat, how could there be any energy, if there was no energy how could there be matter?
Find me a crystal at absolute zero and we'll talk.

In all seriousness this is a good question and seems to be validated by Einstein's E=MC2 equation.

The point I was trying to make is that because we have "something" we also have time. Before the Big Bang, we had no time. Once we had "something" we had time. To say that something "exists" outside of space and time is to imply that it is also governed by matter but that is a paradox because in order for something to "exist" it must be made up of "stuff" and in order to be made up of "stuff" it must be relevant to time. Seriously, the whole God idea doesn't make sense from a number of perspectives, but to say that something "exists" outside of space and time is something that REALLY doesn't make sense to me. I know, I know, I'm not thinking outside the box (i.e- without ration and logic) which is apparently a condition to believe in something existing outside of space and time in the first place.
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