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Old 03-19-2008, 09:00 PM
Status: "Could be worse" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: Las Cruces, New Mexico
510 posts, read 1,308,971 times
Reputation: 452

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ainulinale View Post
This is both a point and something of a question, not an attack: if we had a perfect crystal at absolute zero, wouldn't we have matter but no time? At least assuming all heat could somehow be removed from the universe, but wait if there was no heat, how could there be any energy, if there was no energy how could there be matter?
So, at some point, does it matter what time it is? I mean, if you can't take the heat, how do you have the energy to matter? or is it just a matter of time before the universe ceases to exist?

I think I'm catching on...
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Old 03-19-2008, 10:48 PM
Status: "Could be worse" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: Las Cruces, New Mexico
510 posts, read 1,308,971 times
Reputation: 452
Default Truth is....

Quote:
Originally Posted by ainulinale View Post
Believe me, there are a lot of hostiles on city-data and you are not one of them!

Concerning truth: couldn't we say that "I got out of my bed this morning" is an expression of truth? If this is verbalizing truth, then what separates this propositional truth from the inexpressible truth--aren't they the same in essence? They both describe what is, was or will be.
Sorry, I missed this one (I think I skipped a page).
No, not the same. That's more of a 'fact'. I think of 'truth' as the things "I know that I know that I know".
And, I think it can change and grow over time, as we ripen.
Let's see...an example:
You know what teeth are, right? We eat with them, sometimes they get cavities.
But, it's different when you say something "has teeth", as in 'supports or strengthens a law by providing the funds to make it happen".

So, no, truth is not a simple fact, or an absolute term.
"Trust" is another term that 'has layers'.

When I use the word "Truth", I'm meaning "Spiritual Understanding".
Here's one of my truths:
I absolutely believe in "Divine Justice", that no one 'gets away with anything', no one is 'cheated', etc., but I'm talking about 'in the big picture', not just on this planet or lifetime.
It makes me crazy when people say "No one said life is fair". I believe it is absolutely fair! Why? Not because I want to believe it's true. It's because I SEE the law of Kharma in everything. I study nature, and the process of life, and I seek to understand the Universal Laws in progress.
So, while you may prove to me that you got out of bed, I'll never be able to prove to you that "Divine Justice" exists.
But, as a lifelong student, I can know it's one of my "Truths".
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Old 03-19-2008, 11:26 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
2,237 posts, read 6,566,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anomoly View Post
I think of 'truth' as the things "I know that I know that I know".
But here's the thing: how do you know that you know anything, and by what mechanism do you know? I don't mean to send you around in circles with my constant questions, but I think it's a little difficult for someone of Western thought to be on the same page as one from Eastern thought...they're worlds apart (pun intended after all your puns from the previous post).
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Old 03-19-2008, 11:38 PM
Status: "Could be worse" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: Las Cruces, New Mexico
510 posts, read 1,308,971 times
Reputation: 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by ainulinale View Post
But here's the thing: how do you know that you know anything, and by what mechanism do you know? I don't mean to send you around in circles with my constant questions, but I think it's a little difficult for someone of Western thought to be on the same page as one from Eastern thought...they're worlds apart (pun intended after all your puns from the previous post).
You, my friend, are absolutely right! And, that's the point I've been making all along.
"Spiritual knowledge" is not the same as "Empirical knowledge". It can't be tested scientifically, because it doesn't belong to reason or logic.
So, you won't get any argument from me!
You're actually making my point!

and sorry... I couldn't resist the earlier puns. It's just that you Physics guys lose me every time!! I want to get it, I really want to get it, but I don't.
It's very much like the stuff I'm talking about, I guess you just can't explain certain things to certain people. That's why I don't try to beat it into someone's head.
And I thank you guys for not doing that with the Physics, although it intrigues the heck out of me! Someday, maybe I'll have an 'aha' moment!

Last edited by anomoly; 03-19-2008 at 11:47 PM..
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Old 03-20-2008, 01:36 AM
 
2,633 posts, read 4,532,756 times
Reputation: 586
Quote:
Originally Posted by [B
ainulinale[/b]]This is both a point and something of a question, not an attack: if we had a perfect crystal at absolute zero, wouldn't we have matter but no time? At least assuming all heat could somehow be removed from the universe, but wait if there was no heat, how could there be any energy, if there was no energy how could there be matter?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
Find me a crystal at absolute zero and we'll talk.

In all seriousness this is a good question and seems to be validated by Einstein's E=MC2 equation.
GCSTroop is right by saying that there is no matter that exists at absolute 0, however even if there was no hear in the entire universe, it would still have energy.

Particles have whats called internal energy, this is a sum of the kinetic energy of a particle and its potential energy. At 0 kelvin 12 grams of carbon would not have any kinetic energy, however, it would still have a potential energy of

6.02.10^23x12/12X9x10^16=
5.4x10^40 Joules of energy

I think the lowest temperature that anyone has ever managed to reach was 5x10^-9 k which is pretty impresive stuff
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Old 03-20-2008, 07:15 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,888,431 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coosjoaquin View Post
As an atheist, i believe that the universe has always existed but that it started on the big bang. Though it may seem contradictory, I could discuss this if anyone wants
So the universe is eternal without beginning? Doesen't that require faith to believe in that? Would you not have to have evidence to believe that?
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Old 03-20-2008, 10:42 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
2,237 posts, read 6,566,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coosjoaquin View Post
GCSTroop is right by saying that there is no matter that exists at absolute 0, however even if there was no hear in the entire universe, it would still have energy.
I'm not sure that is what this is saying:

Absolute zero - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But, wikipedia isn't exactly known for its accuracy. Sounds like there is still matter, no heat energy, and the only molecular motion is that required by zero-point energy.
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Old 03-20-2008, 04:33 PM
 
2,633 posts, read 4,532,756 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
So the universe is eternal without beginning? Doesen't that require faith to believe in that? Would you not have to have evidence to believe that?
Nope, relativity tells me that space and time form part of the same 4th dimensional spacetime. Faith is negated by evidence, for relativity its assumption that the speed of light is constant in a vacuum is shown true by the presence of muons on mountains, the shift in the positions of stars compared to where they should be, particle accelerators showing this working ect ect..


If space and time are the same then before space there was no time so if the universe was there when time began, it is eternal but with a begining
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Old 03-22-2008, 01:18 AM
Status: "Could be worse" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: Las Cruces, New Mexico
510 posts, read 1,308,971 times
Reputation: 452
Default God, Time, Physics, Silence....

Hey, I think we lost JerZ...

Talk about a buzz-kill...
Boy, you physics guys sure know how to sure know how to stop a conversation, eh?
Hey, ainulinale, where'd you go?? I still want to know why circles of different sizes have the same number of points?
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Old 03-22-2008, 04:53 AM
 
Location: Mississippi
6,715 posts, read 12,275,566 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ainulinale View Post
I'm not sure that is what this is saying:

Absolute zero - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But, wikipedia isn't exactly known for its accuracy. Sounds like there is still matter, no heat energy, and the only molecular motion is that required by zero-point energy.
The point I was trying to make is that because we have matter we have a potential for energy and as such we have a potential for heat. Therefore, it becomes almost impossible to have absolute zero while still having matter which is why we do not have matter that exists at absolute zero. It's a neat little thing I like to think of as infinity in reverse (even though infinity is all encompassing).

I was, however, trying to bear along with the notion that if we had a crystal at absolute zero (through some sort of pretty awesome lab experiment) what the results would be.
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