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Old 11-29-2017, 11:38 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,051 posts, read 8,257,136 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattie Jo View Post
Being totally annilated is frightening and a fear factor. Being kicked out is one of the worse punishments man can do to another person.i used to be on an ex JW forum. Msny were deptessed, some suicidal. They couldnt go back because they lost their faith. Some lose there faith and left and we then kicked ouy. If they had family members in the church they were shunned by them, if friends the friends shunned them. Unless you have experienced it you will never know how cruel it is. You God is just as bad, if not worse than the God of other Christians. You really need to read the ex JW boards. Or read Crisis of Conscience by Raymond Franz.
I don't think the post you're replying to meant to suggest that JW deconverts don't suffer, just that annihilationism is far less of a terrible thing than hellthreat. Oblivion is not putative. Ceasing to exist is of course awful enough to some people, but I'm just speaking relatively. Personally, I think the prospect of oblivion is a wonderful thing, it puts me (and my loved ones who are already dead) beyond the reach of suffering of any kind, and does not oblige them to continue to have even more benign experiences they may have had enough of anyway. The only problem with oblivion is getting over ourselves and our not-so-covert desire to live forever.
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Old 11-29-2017, 11:49 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,051 posts, read 8,257,136 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
In my experience JW were fairly harmless, almost vegeterian compared to some mainstream fundamentalists out there. It is cult status is exaggerated, it is not a totalitarian sect that inflicts direct psychological and psysical damage to get hold on its members, it is easy to leave and much harder to become a full fledged JW. What dooms JW in the modern upwardly aspired world is its reluctance to embrace upward mobility gospel. No mater how ridiculous stuff JW believe, it lags other mainstream sects and cults as far as promotion of personal growth by means of sweet baby Jesus. It is decisevely underclass, lower tax bracket sect, it's a big No, No, No today.
JWs are in fact authoritarian and very controlling. Shunning those who leave is the very definition of authoritarianism. It is easy to leave in the sense that (unlike some accounts we have from ex-Scientologists, say) no one is holding you against your will. It is however difficult psychologically, because you are isolated in the JW ghetto such that you have no other social support system, and then they take that away from you, including your immediate family, the loss of which is intensely painful.

You are correct that the JWs have an especially anti-intellectual, anti-education bent. This means their members are, on average, not upwardly mobile socially. As unbridled corporatism guts the Western middle class, this is less of a relative handicap than it used to be, but it denies even the faint hope anyone outside the elites might have to break into the elites. It isn't an issue of endorsing the prosperity gospel or not, it is an issue of whether a JW member is allowed to prosper by any means at all. I've encountered more than one ex-JW here and elsewhere who, by the time they were out of the cult, had lost out on most of their educational and career opportunities while they spent the first decade or two of their adult life preparing for the coming "kingdom of god" that never arrived. So the JWs are also a sort of low-grade doomsday cult that sells each new generation of JWs on the notion that Christ's return is so imminent that you should donate all your time to the work of the Watchtower and none to your own betterment or that of your loved ones. They learned years ago not to set hard or particularly immediate dates for the ushering in of Jehovah's kingdom. It's always 10 or 20 years off, no matter what year you're talking about.

So in summation I have to disagree that the JWs are not inflicting any psychological damage on their members. I'll go with no physical damage, but the psychological damage is extensive and massive.
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Old 11-29-2017, 03:52 PM
 
3,509 posts, read 1,300,058 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
I don't think the post you're replying to meant to suggest that JW deconverts don't suffer, just that annihilationism is far less of a terrible thing than hellthreat. Oblivion is not putative. Ceasing to exist is of course awful enough to some people, but I'm just speaking relatively. Personally, I think the prospect of oblivion is a wonderful thing, it puts me (and my loved ones who are already dead) beyond the reach of suffering of any kind, and does not oblige them to continue to have even more benign experiences they may have had enough of anyway. The only problem with oblivion is getting over ourselves and our not-so-covert desire to live forever.


The first death is not permanent. There will be a resurrection in Gods kingdom on the earth. Loved ones could get the opportunity to learn and apply Gods will and gain life everlasting on a paradise( Eden) Earth= the new earth--Gods kingdom in full control. His original plan back on track And he only rested creating.
Oblivion would be much nicer than eternal suffering.
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Old 11-29-2017, 03:56 PM
 
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All who know what the bible teaches knows Gods view of what he accepts and what he does not. Its not that difficult
Mark 3:24-26-- A house divided( 33,000 trinity based religions) will NOT stand--- pretty clear.
A true mark-1Cor 1:10-- unity of thought( all bible truth) no division)-- pretty clear. So I wonder what makes some reason falsely ( Jer 17:9)about what a cult to God is since his opinion is the ONLY opinion.
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Old 11-29-2017, 07:47 PM
 
4,825 posts, read 4,684,990 times
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I happen to talk/know many JW. I let them know that I am not interested early on, and they totally respect that wish. Yet we find something to talk about, including touchy subjects. They are not totalitarian to the point of shunning a "lost" person spouting blasphemous views as some mainstream protestants I've met. They can separate their belief and life outside that belief unlike let's say hundreds of millions of mainstream Muslims taking their faith way too seriously. As far as the outside world is concerned they are not totalitarian. Sure they believe weird crap but I dont really have anything better to offer, whatever they believe it works for them. A community forms around that belief and it does what human communities do. Nothing I've read here cannnot happen between let's say secular family members going through a divorce. Belonging is a weapon all groups use to manipulate behavior of their members. But if belonging to a group is not an issue one can separate from JW with no trouble at all. Actually i've met a few fake JW who just tag along for the sake of a family member (while doing all the things a JW is not allowed to do). Apparently powerful brainwashing techniques JW deploy could not modify their belief and behavior.
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Old 11-30-2017, 09:23 AM
 
14 posts, read 10,381 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
I happen to talk/know many JW. I let them know that I am not interested early on, and they totally respect that wish. Yet we find something to talk about, including touchy subjects. They are not totalitarian to the point of shunning a "lost" person spouting blasphemous views as some mainstream protestants I've met. They can separate their belief and life outside that belief unlike let's say hundreds of millions of mainstream Muslims taking their faith way too seriously. As far as the outside world is concerned they are not totalitarian. Sure they believe weird crap but I dont really have anything better to offer, whatever they believe it works for them. A community forms around that belief and it does what human communities do. Nothing I've read here cannnot happen between let's say secular family members going through a divorce. Belonging is a weapon all groups use to manipulate behavior of their members. But if belonging to a group is not an issue one can separate from JW with no trouble at all. Actually i've met a few fake JW who just tag along for the sake of a family member (while doing all the things a JW is not allowed to do). Apparently powerful brainwashing techniques JW deploy could not modify their belief and behavior.
You really do not know what your talking about. Talking to a JW and knowing what its like to be a member on the inside is like saying I talked to a Scientologist and know all about it. No you do not. They absolutely shun/disfellowship/excommunicate. They do not separate their outside life from the inside. I will say I have known some JWs who are not considered strong in the <church> that will do things looked down upon by other JWs. These are not the rule but the exception. JWs are very restrictive in who the associate with. They will not associate outside of work and or school with non JWs. Marrying anyone not a JW is not seen as acceptable. A JW is told to attend 5 meetings a week. One hour on Tuesday night or what day they move it to but usually Tuesday night, 2 on Thursday night and 2 on Sunday and told to put in at least 8 hours a month in field service. Couple this with personal study and you have a lot of time eaten up/wasted. Things in the JW that will get you disfellowshipped are smoking, talking or associating with another disfellowshipped person, sex outside of marriage, gambling, drinking to any excess, reading or watching anything counter to the teaching of the cult, questioning the <church> in any way that is critical of the <church>, taking blood in a transfusion or eating things such as blood pudding, celebrating holidays, joining the military to name but a few. The JWs are smart enough to never say you joined the Military so your out. They disfellowship for conduct unbecoming a christian and joining the military is just that. Once disfellowshipped its a year long process of coming in late to meetings so as not to accidentally talk to others, and leaving early, and then you can apply to an elder for "reinstatement. " Its a <church> and it tears family members apart. I have seen it I had it happen to my self personally. I have family members who if they saw me would cross the street and look at me like I just kicked their dog because I do not believe in the <church> any longer.

Last edited by mensaguy; 11-30-2017 at 09:32 AM.. Reason: Quit calling the JWs a cult.
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Old 11-30-2017, 09:24 AM
 
14 posts, read 10,381 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjw47 View Post
All who know what the bible teaches knows Gods view of what he accepts and what he does not. Its not that difficult
Mark 3:24-26-- A house divided( 33,000 trinity based religions) will NOT stand--- pretty clear.
A true mark-1Cor 1:10-- unity of thought( all bible truth) no division)-- pretty clear. So I wonder what makes some reason falsely ( Jer 17:9)about what a cult to God is since his opinion is the ONLY opinion.
Your assuming one believes in the bible and the god of the old and new test. I do not so quoting scripture is moot.
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Old 11-30-2017, 01:20 PM
 
3,509 posts, read 1,300,058 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by battlingtops View Post
Your assuming one believes in the bible and the god of the old and new test. I do not so quoting scripture is moot.
Then why one living in such darkness is wasting their life in this sight--just to be a troll???????
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Old 11-30-2017, 06:51 PM
Status: "...We are closing in..." (set 29 days ago)
 
32,590 posts, read 7,908,519 times
Reputation: 4596
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjw47 View Post
Then why one living in such darkness is wasting their life in this sight--just to be a troll???????
"you mean "Site" of course. However, I am always reminded of John 9.41 Jesus said to them, If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, We see. Therefore your sin remains."

Of course "Sin" is an absurd theological dogma founded on Myth, nonsense and moral blackmail. So I rather translate that as 'Fault'. And the Fault is refusing to look at the evidence with eyes open. Preferring to shut them and focus on Faith. I wish I could find that cartoon of a Bearded bod holding the Bible and pointing at the sky ( ) and the atheists throwing his eyes in the Bin and saying "I won't beleive if i can't see it'. It is (as is usually the case) the believer who is throwing the faculty of sight in the bin and saying "I don't see that you have any evidence.."
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Old 11-30-2017, 06:55 PM
 
Location: minnesota
4,640 posts, read 1,441,552 times
Reputation: 1583
https://clyp.it/hmr1r4iw?token=a68a0...59d78ecb8fd6b0
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