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Old 12-09-2017, 10:23 AM
 
Location: USA
2,239 posts, read 838,439 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSoul View Post
No, it was people doing that. People are the hands of God - for good or bad.

The problem with so many discussions about God is often God is defined in ways that are not true.
Buddha, Jesus & many others explained that God is not some external observable thing but “the kingdom (realm/experience) of God is within you.” When you realize how it couldn’t be any other way, you’re left with responsibility- which is why many would rather look to a sky-daddy to blame.

God is defined as love. The word is like GOoD - which is potential in us all, but often is revealed through “bad.”
I actually agree with you. But only because I do not for a minute suppose that any such God ever existed to begin with. People are responsible for the horrible things that people do. Sometimes in the name of God. Because the Bible is very clear that God personally ordered that children and babies, helpless men and women, should be summarily hacked to death with swords.

Numbers 31

[15] And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
[16] Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
[17] Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
[18] But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Joshua 6

[20] So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city.
[21]And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.


Joshua 11:

19 Except for the Hivites living in Gibeon, not one city made a treaty of peace with the Israelites, who took them all in battle. 20 For it was the Lord himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the Lord had commanded Moses.

Ezekiel 9

[4] And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
[5] And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
[6] Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
[7] And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.

Samuel 1 15:

[2][b] Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
[3] Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.


Because, according to the Bible, God is NOT only a God of love. God creates evil.

Isaiah 45:
[7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.]
[kjv]

So what is to be believed here. What some Christians prefer to believe? Or what the Bible actually says?
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Old 12-13-2017, 02:25 PM
 
31,576 posts, read 7,283,106 times
Reputation: 4478
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
I actually agree with you. But only because I do not for a minute suppose that any such God ever existed to begin with. People are responsible for the horrible things that people do. Sometimes in the name of God. Because the Bible is very clear that God personally ordered that children and babies, helpless men and women, should be summarily hacked to death with swords.

Numbers 31

[15] And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
[16] Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
[17] Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
[18] But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Joshua 6

[20] So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city.
[21]And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.


Joshua 11:

19 Except for the Hivites living in Gibeon, not one city made a treaty of peace with the Israelites, who took them all in battle. 20 For it was the Lord himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the Lord had commanded Moses.

Ezekiel 9

[4] And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
[5] And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
[6] Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
[7] And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.

Samuel 1 15:

[2][b] Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
[3] Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.


Because, according to the Bible, God is NOT only a God of love. God creates evil.

Isaiah 45:
[7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.]
[kjv]

So what is to be believed here. What some Christians prefer to believe? Or what the Bible actually says?
I'm surprised at myself. Admittedly it is a bit late and my mind was on whether to have a pipe before coffee or after..but when I saw your post of Biblequotes...I cringed...

[21]And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.

I
bet they didn't get all the cockroaches.
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Old 01-26-2018, 09:54 AM
 
2,327 posts, read 2,519,524 times
Reputation: 1158
Quote:
Originally Posted by maat55 View Post
Are we talking about the biblical God? If so, you need to do some reading. The mythical biblical God has killed more people than humans. He killed thousands for just asking for meat in place of manna.
How many definitions of God are there in the bible?
How many of those are you considering when you say, "biblical God?"
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Old 01-26-2018, 09:59 AM
 
2,327 posts, read 2,519,524 times
Reputation: 1158
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Isn't it marvellous? God orders bad stuff - humans get the blame. Humans do good stuff - God gets the credit.
Since I didn't write that - it came from you, I'm lead to believe that you have been nurturing resentment for feeling blamed for things but never credit for the good you do. I can relate - and I think we could agree that some religious ideas promote such punitive shame, which is actually damning (keeping us back from) exploring the kingdom of God within - aka our "psychology" - study of the soul.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07vRNeuU7QM
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Old 01-26-2018, 10:04 AM
 
2,327 posts, read 2,519,524 times
Reputation: 1158
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Moses has not been adequately established as an historical character.
Yes, he has, as evident by him being honored in the US Capitol building as a significant law-maker.
It's true that there are debates as to the historical authenticity of biblical events associated with Moses, but whether he was a "character" in a parable or historically doesn't subtract from the very real influence the 10 commandments have had in societies.

Quote:
It is true that religious morality is far from immutable. It can't be; the actual source of morality is society; if religion does not evolve along with society in the way that religion decorates and embellishes societal morality, it will itself become immoral, and suffer the consequences.
I can see some truth in that, however I can also see that in each of us is a conscious that is not just based on our societal values, but as Carl Jung explained, from a collective unconscious that does indeed predate Moses.
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Old 01-26-2018, 10:07 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,026 posts, read 8,057,935 times
Reputation: 5959
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSoul View Post
Since I didn't write that - it came from you, I'm lead to believe that you have been nurturing resentment for feeling blamed for things but never credit for the good you do. I can relate - and I think we could agree that some religious ideas promote such punitive shame, which is actually damning (keeping us back from) exploring the kingdom of God within - aka our "psychology" - study of the soul.
I think you assume too much. One can observe that in the Abrahamic religions, particularly the authoritarian precincts thereof, god generally gets credit and not blame, without having taken in personally.

The real issue raised by this is that god, who has ultimate power and therefore should be extra accountable, is entirely unaccountable via this mechanism. But to be indignant about that, you'd have to (1) believe in a god and (2) believe that this mechanism I speak of is how things actually work, rather than another human-invented, asserted, unsubstantiated doctrine.

In the real world of course every real being is accountable for their own actions, good and bad. Ultimately, "god gets all credit and no blame" is just another instance of special pleading.
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Old 01-26-2018, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,026 posts, read 8,057,935 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSoul View Post
Yes, he has, as evident by him being honored in the US Capitol building as a significant law-maker.
It's true that there are debates as to the historical authenticity of biblical events associated with Moses, but whether he was a "character" in a parable or historically doesn't subtract from the very real influence the 10 commandments have had in societies.
As I said, Moses has not been established to be an HISTORICAL character. Yes he is a meme or archetype or legend and has influence as such. But I wasn't addressing that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSoul View Post
I can see some truth in that, however I can also see that in each of us is a conscious that is not just based on our societal values, but as Carl Jung explained, from a collective unconscious that does indeed predate Moses.
I'm generally sympathetic to Jungian notions but they were, and remain, hypotheses. I have not seen them substantiated in some intersubjective way. I'm not sure they CAN be. However if there's a "collective unconscious" in play along with other mechanisms of societal morality negotiations, it presents no problem for me.
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Old 01-26-2018, 10:12 AM
 
2,327 posts, read 2,519,524 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumbo10 View Post
I agree sins are bad, but I also accept that they're human nature and constantly feeling guilty and feel needing to ask God for forgiveness could cause neurosis.
I agree, but there's more and it's important to keep exploring rather than blame neurosis (an inner state) on something outside of ourselves. First off, I've come to redefine sin as incorrect thought and consequent feeling, motive and action. So, to me, the punitively shame-based way many religious people view sin is sin (incorrect thought) itself and becomes a stumbling block - ironically kind of damning (holding one back).


If you look deep - I mean beyond orthodox superficiality - into Christian symbolism, you'll find that all that Jesus did he suggested we follow and do and more! "Without a parable spake he not unto them." I consider Jesus's life a parable to kind of pattern my life after...


*Physically and spiritual born (rich symbolism in the parable of Jesus's birth!)
*Honored his parents, while honoring God.
*Fasted and did some soul-searching, which involved confronting Satan (his own evil potentials), to realize better ambitions.
*Asked for help - sought friends to help and by which to be helped
*Loved each person who came his way. His ability to love was miraculous - he seemed to have psychic abilities to know and understand how best to love each person.
*Continued to do deep soul-searching - taking responsibility for his inheritance of some negative energy - from generations of wrong thought, feeling and action. Asked for spiritual help and received it.
*Stood up for what he had learned. Some say Jesus was the arch-type of Free Speech. He was kind and loving at times, but he also showed love by striving for what's best in others in pointing out what they were trying to deny, making him unashamedly politically incorrect.
*Forgave even the worst offenses because after all his soul searching he understood, "they know not what they do."
*Overcame the world - in body and spirit! Considering that the US's #1 cause of death is heart disease, a good start is working toward having our spirit rule over our body rather than visa versa. And I also think that we need to learn to address truth - including pain - so that God can make weak things strong. "Positive Disintegration" is a huge part of this spiritual process but "few there be find it."


Jesus represents 2 main things to me:
1) Relentless search for and defending of truth (including the good and bad within each of us & free speech) and
2) Love of self and others
I think part of his approach was humbly serving after he had figured out essentially the serenity prayer:
"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference."
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Old 01-26-2018, 10:25 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
15,990 posts, read 7,562,140 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
As a kneejerk reaction, I'd say a reactionary one - at doctrine -deciding level anyway. At the same time at grassroots level, they have done well in pushing for education, hospitals and caring for the needy.

...

While those using the Bible to justify slavery did it no credit, there were many believers whp worked for freedom.

But what I'm seeing all the time is that religion itself does little to help but there are many who see clearly what is right to be done, whether they are religious or not. And when everyone is indoctrinated with religion, many of them will reference their religion as the inspiration for moral action, and the religion in due course will be happy to take the credit for what it did not help and even opposed.

While doing Buddhism (as well with ASEAN Buddhist-and Hindu- history), I saw almost as many beggars to the furlong as we have here here in the UK. What did the Snaga ..I mean Sangha...do to help? Nothing that I could see. They went out to receive donations and they ate them themselves. Indeed, a guesthouse owner in Srilanka (who, because I was doing Buddhism, got me to visit the scion of the original Bodhi tree) muttered that he wouldn't invite a single monk to any donation of his but rather the beggars.

So, religion is there to serve its' own ends, not people. Democracy, despite its' many faults, does more for the people than rulers or churches. If Peter the great worked for Russia to advance, it was so that it could fight enemies with its' own weapons, not to improve the lot of the poor. If the churches take a keen interest in education, it isn't out of concern for teaching kids to read or write, but to ensure they are religiously indoctrinated from the first.

So, wot I'm saying is - that it is rational humanism that sees what is right, using critical reasoning, and pushes for it, whether within religion or without. And religion is more likely to fight the reforms - and this is still going on today, and then try to grab the credit when the right prevails.
Time we stopped letting them take the credit.
Time we saw where morality really comes from.
Time we stopped religions exploit us for their own good while pretending that it is for ours.

And I hope they strip Crefflo of every cent and lock him up for the rest of his life. And there's a lot more like him on the list.
I think your first paragraph sums things up fairly well, at least for the most part. It may fall apart a bit in that you are lumping all religions together in that first paragraph. I think it varies a great deal by religion. And I think that some religious groups are more like clubs that do a great deal for their members, but do not look outside their own membership for people in need.

Your paragraph about slavery...I'd have to say that was a wash. Some churches, particularly in the South, used religion to justify slavery. Others, particularly in the North, used religion to condemn slavery.

I guess I have to stick up for Buddhist monks. Having spent a great deal of time in Thailand, including having lived there for a couple of years, I visited MANY Buddhist temples. Not just the touristy temples, but temples that were so poor that the ubosots and wiharns had dirt floors. Some temples had no running water. I've been inside monk's kutis, and the monks I knew and talked to owned virtually NOTHING. Even the monks I know here in the U.S. own almost nothing. They rely on what the laity gives them, and they are not even allowed to ask the laity for something. The food they get is what is given to them. And when someone doesn't bring fresh food, they may or may not have some food in storage that they can cook for themselves. And by the way...how do you "do" Buddhism. What does that even mean?
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Old 01-26-2018, 10:27 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
15,990 posts, read 7,562,140 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Morality is emergent from societal interactions and so to the extent it has evolved and improved it is because society has moved it along.

Now churches are part of society and to the extent they participate in society they had a role. Not always a positive one, but a role. For example if you regard marriage equality as better than marriage inequality then the role of many churches was to oppose that, so it was not a positive contribution to societal morality.

But I reject the claims of many churches to be brokers of some superior morality; that exists entirely in their own imagination. The notion that morality wanes when the influence of churches wanes is absurd.
I agree with this post. All too often churches are dragged along kicking and screaming to a higher plane of morality. All too often they focus on morality as being that that is related to being able to say -- stop being a bad boy (or girl), when morality is so much bigger a plate than that.
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