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Old 01-28-2018, 01:12 PM
 
Location: Under Moon & Star
1,427 posts, read 496,487 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSoul View Post
Yes, he has, as evident by him being honored in the US Capitol building as a significant law-maker.
It's true that there are debates as to the historical authenticity of biblical events associated with Moses, but whether he was a "character" in a parable or historically doesn't subtract from the very real influence the 10 commandments have had in societies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSoul View Post
The influence Moses had is more important than what actually happened about 3,300 years ago. What is happening NOW is much more relevant. And the fact is, Moses is honored in the US Capitol building as a significant law-maker, because indeed, we do have laws against killing, stealing, lying under oath etc.
So does every society, before and after someone dreamed up the Ten Commandments.

Eastern nations, whose legal systems were developed before Judeo-Christian thought was known locally, proscribed such things. So did pagan peoples. So did peoples of the Americas and Australia. So still do peoples in places like the Amazon and New Guinea that have been heretofore uncontacted by the outside world. Why? For the simple reason that such rules promote social cohesiveness. Those societies that didn't develop such rules failed. The fantasy theists have that it had never dawned previously on anyone that society functioned better when people weren't allowed to kill each other and take each other's stuff is a mark of considerable ignorance about the world.

Furthermore, it should be noted that in the past the United States, as just one example, was far more religious than it is today in the 21st century. By your logic, there then should have been less killing and stealing and whatnot because of the wondrous Ten Commandments and their reverence at the time. Yet that's not the case. Back in those days of comparative religiosity Americans owned millions of slaves, who were forced to toil for nothing but the bare minimum in upkeep and under threat of punishment. They could be killed with the blessing of the law. Millions of acres were stolen from Native Americans, who were killed outright or by deprivation. But as the religious intensity of the United States has waned, our society's willingness to embrace such theft and murder has declined. This is mirrored in all of Western Civilization.

Finally, while some commandments are indeed wise, others range from pointless to idiotic to impossible. No graven images? No taking the name of God in vain? Keeping the Sabbath holy? Those serve no social utility whatsoever. They do nothing but promote the cult of Christianity - they exist for its sake, not for the sake of society. Thou shalt have no other God's before me? Religious intolerance is not a social benefit, unless you uphold theocracies such as Saudi Arabia above the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States. And the commandments against coveting? First, they're nonsensical, as coveting is just basic human nature. It's involuntary. It's also an inherent aspect of markets - people strive because they want things. I have a nice television because I saw someone else's and said "I want one of those!". So I acquired one through the fruits of my labors. And if I occasionally covet someone's restored 1968 Mustang fastback, or find a woman other my wife rather fetching, so what? There's nothing wrong with that so long as I don't steal the car or pursue an affair with another woman.

So the Ten Commandments range from glaringly obvious to useless to illogical.
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Old 01-28-2018, 01:14 PM
 
2,650 posts, read 1,357,938 times
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahidism
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Old 01-28-2018, 02:22 PM
 
Location: Ohio
17,740 posts, read 13,060,658 times
Reputation: 13407
Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc View Post
Humanity still has a long way to go to be equal to the morality of God...
Humanity exceeds the morality of Jesus.

Jesus condoned and supported slavery; modern humans do not.

Jesus condoned and engaged in genocide; modern humans treat genocide as a crime and prosecute principals and actors involved.

Jesus condoned rape; modern humans prosecute and incarcerate those who commit rape.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSoul View Post
Moses is honored in the US Capitol building as being one of the most significant law-makers ever to live.
Some basics that might be taken for granted that we got from Moses:
1. Don't kill
2. Don't steal
3. Don't lie
4. Don't cheat
5. Honor your parents (generally, parents are each of ours first morality teachers)
The Hebrews plagiarized their commandments from the Egyptians:

I have not robbed.
I have not coveted
I have not stolen
I have not committed wrong-doing against anyone
I have not done injustice in the place of Truth
I have not done evil
I have not debased a god
I have not done that which the gods abominate
I have not slandered a servant before his superior
I have not killed
I have not commanded to kill
I have not damaged the offerings to the gods
I have not copulated in sin
I have not been lascivious
I have not taken milk from the mouths of children
I have not neglected the days concerning their offerings


Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Moses has not been adequately established as an historical character.
You should know his real name is not "-moses."

Moses in Egyptian written m-s-s is a suffix meaning "to emanate from."

The Egyptian m-s-s was always prefixed with the name of a deity, as in Thutmoses (emanating from Ptah) or Ramses (emanating from Ra).

One of the editors of the J series or D series of stories has edited out -- deleted -- the prefix for the real name of "-moses."

My guess is that it was Jeremiah who did the editing, so unless we find an unedited D version or a J version that hasn't been edited, we'll never know the name of the deity that prefixed the name of "-moses."

I use X-moses, sort of like Malcolm X, only different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by littlewitness View Post
Is your "feeling" based on what God's only begotten Son, Jesus Christ did for you?
He didn't do anything for me, and god can always have another son, so it's not like it's any great sacrifice.
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Old 01-28-2018, 02:32 PM
 
2,650 posts, read 1,357,938 times
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Thutmoses (emanating from Ptah)?

Not Thoth?
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Old 01-28-2018, 02:53 PM
 
2,351 posts, read 2,583,754 times
Reputation: 1177
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
I quite agree and in fact I don't really mind Your definition (or what I vaguely take it to be) which is why it isn't aimed at you personally, dear lady, much less any resentment as a proposition I don't even believe.

The atheist artillery is aimed at organized religion and the various literalist interpretations of the Bible. As i said elsewhere, those who take it as metaphor are effectively saying 'it isn''t (factually) true'
Ok, in a way I agree that much of the parables in the bible are not factually true, implying also that if taken literally some under modern circumstances are either not applicable or even not ethically GOoD either (ironically). But what is truth? Would you ever dream of picking up your car manual to explore the meaning of life? Of course not. There are different types of truth: scientific, practical, spiritual, psychological etc.

Quote:
The Metaphorical or social-ethical value of the Bible is another debate altogether, and while significant doesn't have the current urgency that is needed to roll back the powerful right wing fundamentalist creationism that is a threat, and not just in the US.
What exactly is the threat?
To me, mafia run organizations - especially government-related - are more of a threat than some theory of Adam and Eve ever could be. Moreover, evolution is becoming increasingly accepted - and religion is becoming increasingly attacked as is free-speech.

Quote:
The more Woo -ish interpretations of God from Alan Watts to Deepak Chophra are also significan (and different) debates. It is for me a low priority to convince you that you are wrong. I really don't even want to. I am willing to say why I don't buy it myself and leave it at that. I just pick up on various questionable assertions or propositions (like what God does that's bad, is men's fault, not God's).
For the record, I wrote that people are responsible - meaning that the good and bad have been done by people. I believe that when we pray, we are essentially like we're doing now - communicating through a big web network to each other. IE: Say someone who is starving prays for food. People who are able to help them if they are sensitive to it, will respond - usually being oblivious that they are responding to a prayer - they just do it. And of course prayer especially helps us individually tap into the highest GOoD within us - and who wouldn't want to do that?

Quote:
The way it goes is like this: It is nit for atheists to define your God for you. You tell us what it is and we'll evaluate the validity of the claim. Where the impact on society is academic, the debate will be academic. Wjere it is real and practical, the debate (and activism) will be real and practical.
I agree that Atheists cannot define my God for me, which is why I have a problem with them telling me my God is nothing and otherwise denying what is my highest GOoD.
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Old 01-28-2018, 03:03 PM
 
2,351 posts, read 2,583,754 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
I think I made it quite plain I'm referring to what I'm most familiar with: conventional Abrahamic god-concepts, particularly, evangelical / fundamentalist Christianity, since that's my religion of origin.

But I also for purposes of this conversation am punting back to a more generic / general Christian monotheism.

You are correct that Judeo-Christian god concepts evolved. You can even see a late polytheistic concept of Jehovah in the OT, transitioning over to monotheism. Then there's the law vs grace tension in the NT. The problem for fundamentalism is that it sees god as immutable and thus has to reconcile all these into a unified concept. It's a lot of work, and doesn't come off well.
Still, within the Abrahamic/Christian religions - there are many many definitions of God. And I agree that to try to shove it all together to make one unchanging idea of God doesn't work - but isn't that what many do in arguing against God?


This is where some Agnostic humility ideally comes in - to admit, "I'm not really sure what God is" - but then also some spirit to say, "But I want to learn what I can and what I resonate to." I believe that how you define God tells much more about you than about God. Or rather, your particular stage of faith (or lack of)... Chart of James Fowler's Stages of Faith | psychologycharts.com
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Old 01-28-2018, 03:12 PM
 
2,351 posts, read 2,583,754 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Irrelevant and non-sequitur. If Moses wasn't an historical character then he invented nothing. He is a mythical person wrongly credited with things he never did. Indeed, Western legal systems owe very little to Moses, our legal system evolved from British common law, not Judaic law.

Finally -- the Mosaic law is itself derivative and not original.
It doesn't matter if Moses is all pretend - the question is, "Did a belief in Moses create influence?" And there is no doubt that yes - plenty! This is where many - especially those who come out of some dysfunctional religious upbringing - get lost because they throw out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak. They see so many people worshipping a map, mistaking it for the terrain, that they want nothing to do with the map, and they get lost.

IE: The placebo effect is known to be so significant, it is the 1st listed factors tested for medication effectiveness. Placebo effect is essentially believing a lie which produces influence on your body. We do this all of the time - we're affecting our health for good or bad, by how we think (besides other factors like diet etc). Belief is not something you can just throw out - you do believe many things that are not true - we all do. And I realize that religion often is interpreted in dysfunctional ways to make people believe things that produce shame, anxiety or depression. But some aspects of religion - especially symbols taken symbolically not literally - can help inspire and uplift beliefs which can positively affect psychological and physical health. It's not all-or-nothing.

Quote:
I hardly think I'm apathetic about my own consciousness just because I find Jung interesting rather than something I credulously embrace just because I like it. Again ... you assume way too much.
Sorry, you're right I am assuming too much. You wrote, "However if there's a "collective unconscious" in play along with other mechanisms of societal morality negotiations, it presents no problem for me." And I assumed you were apathetic about it all, but that's not really what you wrote.
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Old 01-28-2018, 03:20 PM
 
2,351 posts, read 2,583,754 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8 View Post
AHHHHH That's my song for what it's like growing up in a high control group!!!! I was alive and could see other people doing normal things but it was always denied to me. I had to be "different". "isolated""no part of the world". Thanks.

Edit: and your right about always feeling like a person can't be good enough. no matter how much I did I was always weak and expected to do more.
I'm glad you liked it. I relate to it too and to what you experienced growing up. I've had to really work through some thoughts and feelings to figure out what I think and want, because for so long, I lived by others' values and shame-based "shoulds."

I forgot where I read it, but consider this: If you happened to be born into a family down the street, you may have been treated so differently - and had different experiences. If you felt never good enough, it wasn't so much you as it was the circumstances you were brought up in. And another point: some people who don't have all of the usual abilities can feel better about themselves than someone with abilities - so it's not so much about reality as it is how you think towards and feel about yourself.
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Old 01-28-2018, 03:40 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
18,354 posts, read 8,586,970 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSoul View Post
It doesn't matter if Moses is all pretend - the question is, "Did a belief in Moses create influence?" ...
Oh no. It matters. You can't say that Moses may or may not be "pretend", without saying that everything is the bible may or may not be pretend.
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Old 01-28-2018, 03:44 PM
 
2,351 posts, read 2,583,754 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulsker 1856 View Post
So does every society, before and after someone dreamed up the Ten Commandments.

Eastern nations, whose legal systems were developed before Judeo-Christian thought was known locally, proscribed such things. So did pagan peoples. So did peoples of the Americas and Australia. So still do peoples in places like the Amazon and New Guinea that have been heretofore uncontacted by the outside world. Why? For the simple reason that such rules promote social cohesiveness. Those societies that didn't develop such rules failed. The fantasy theists have that it had never dawned previously on anyone that society functioned better when people weren't allowed to kill each other and take each other's stuff is a mark of considerable ignorance about the world.
I do remember reading about some group who had similar rules as the 10 commandments. However, the fact that you nor I have mentioned a specific list, suggests that they were not as known and influential as the 10 commandments. We may agree that societies are not built out of thin air - but adopt and adapt rules and customs from previous generations. Still, please name one list of rules or commandments older than the 10 commandments that is more known.

Quote:
Furthermore, it should be noted that in the past the United States, as just one example, was far more religious than it is today in the 21st century. By your logic, there then should have been less killing and stealing and whatnot because of the wondrous Ten Commandments and their reverence at the time. Yet that's not the case. Back in those days of comparative religiosity Americans owned millions of slaves, who were forced to toil for nothing but the bare minimum in upkeep and under threat of punishment. They could be killed with the blessing of the law. Millions of acres were stolen from Native Americans, who were killed outright or by deprivation. But as the religious intensity of the United States has waned, our society's willingness to embrace such theft and murder has declined. This is mirrored in all of Western Civilization.
No that's not my logic at all. My logic is that when you introduce a relatively new law, it takes people a while to learn about, accept and embrace it. But even then, there is choice to obey or disobey. I don't know the exact numbers off hand, but my guess is that in the last 100 years, there has been more killing than any 100 years back 3,300 years ago. The problem is that "thou shalt not kill" seems to apply only to those who do not have military permission to kill. But that's another topic.

Main point: In some ways, we have advanced ethically, in part thanks to Moses's 10-commandments (however they culminated), but law doesn't dictate ethical behavior. And this is actually why despite not believing in organized religion, I see benefit of it. Religion has both good and bad aspects - it can shame people into doing or not doing what government never can inspire.

Quote:
Finally, while some commandments are indeed wise, others range from pointless to idiotic to impossible. No graven images? No taking the name of God in vain? Keeping the Sabbath holy? Those serve no social utility whatsoever. They do nothing but promote the cult of Christianity - they exist for its sake, not for the sake of society. Thou shalt have no other God's before me? Religious intolerance is not a social benefit, unless you uphold theocracies such as Saudi Arabia above the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States. And the commandments against coveting? First, they're nonsensical, as coveting is just basic human nature. It's involuntary....

So the Ten Commandments range from glaringly obvious to useless to illogical.
Some of the 10 commandments are pretty straight forward practically applicable to a legal system (don't kill, don't steal, don't lie). Others are more subtle, social and spiritual.
The 1st is to have no other gods before God, and the 2nd and 3rd are like it: don't worship graven images and don't call God when you don't really mean it. This means that ideally your highest priority (what you worship) is NOT your TV, the neighbor's wife etc, but it is the highest GOoD.
Keeping the Sabbath day holy is common sense. Who wants to work 7 days a week nonstop? We need breaks, though I realize the law of Moses was insanely strict about how many steps etc - missing the point of what it was meant for. As Jesus said, when someone criticized him for doing something on the Sabbath, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."
Not Coveting is not to say you can't want things and go after what you want, but more like to be grateful for what you have, rather than constantly having to chase your tail, to get more and more and never being satisfied.
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