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Old 12-07-2017, 09:49 AM
Status: "Status-free" (set 5 days ago)
 
Location: Land of the Tonkawa and Kiowa
3,878 posts, read 1,440,960 times
Reputation: 5380

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
Evangelical Christianity is not only intellectually bankrupt, I believe it is also morally bankrupt. It’s basically just a smokescreen for far-right politics.
It's not bankrupt on either account. It's fine intellectually, but is suffering because so many dopes and idiots are infiltrating it. It's being toyed with morally due to the same aforementioned types manipulating what it's truly about.

But just because these folks are trying to mess it up, the authentic/original way (as described in scripture and the Bible) remains intact. It's not much different from the political realm, where the Founding Fathers had the right ideas and healthy beginnings, but people abuse and reject them, and try to twist the country's origins into something completely different (and often opposite).

We shouldn't fault the original documents and original ways. We need to point the blame at those warping and ruining what was originally setup. The problem is with people, not the systems. We have to call out those causing problems in the name of Christianity, and continue to point out how far they stray from the Bible (often nearly in opposition to Jesus' life and messages). Not enough are doing that, including many on the sidelines, who are also part of the problem.

 
Old 12-07-2017, 09:52 AM
Status: "Just crying wolf" (set 2 hours ago)
 
5,260 posts, read 1,304,368 times
Reputation: 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
I truly DO understand the point.

I used to know a pastor pretty well who had the same view, and his way of conveying it was to point at people with his index finger but also his thumb hyperextended, pointing to himself, and say "when I call you out as a sinner I'm also calling myself out".

But that you include yourself, and/or style yourself as merely a messenger, and/or say it very "nicely", doesn't change that you ARE judging others. Inherently. And while it's noble in a way to include yourself in the judgment, and I have no reason to think you're insincere in that, it doesn't really change what's wrong about judging others. You are perfectly within your rights to judge yourself, but not anyone else.
Actually, when I "judge", I speak about behavior. I don't recall suggesting that anyone in particular is a gunkie head.

Some behaviors are sinful. I am sinful, so is everyone else. But to suggest that I'm a hatemonger for saying that is simply a personal attack. I don't hate anyone. On the other hand, to call me a hatemonger or bigot is just that--to hate me and display bigotry toward religion.
Quote:
Also, the objection on offer here is not so much that you're talking about some general principle of guilt, posed in a philosophical way ... you're getting down to particular cases, even when those particular cases run counter to the increasing societal consensus that certain things are entirely acceptable personal choices. This means that no matter how hatred-free you are, you are impertinently interfering in the freedom of others to live by their own lights, which is inherently fascistic, controlling and authoritarian.
Which cases? Can you elaborate?
Quote:
And you're doing it, despite that you are, I'm assuming, a basically decent and well-meaning human being. Because your dogma demands it of you.

So the fundamental conflict has nothing to do with whether or not you feel you should live within certain strictures, or even whether or not you feel everyone should; it has to do with your need to control others through disparagement, shame, or denial of some or all social reciprocity. Your group is not primarily inclusive, but exclusive.
Again, you quite ironically judge me and state that I have a need to control others. No. I don't.
Quote:
Does that explain a little better how people feel about you "calling out" their personal choices as "sinful"? Even if you feel this is god's marching orders for you, surely it at least renders people's responses understandable, and something other than merely an expression of willful disobedience or something.
Again....nowhere have I ever suggested that anyone is an evil sinners and needs to just do good. Do you realize that? On the contrary, we see Christians get attacked every day on this forum, calling us names and slandering us.
Quote:
I realize its a fine line, of course. I have had some pretty stern things to say about what I regard as the unholy alliance between evangelicals and right wing politics and the inherent hypocrisies thereof. That is going to make some evangelicals uncomfortable. It is a form of social approbation. It is free speech. But I would cross a line by saying that you must leave the GOP or face eternal perdition, methinks. That is claiming divine endorsement for a personal view.
Let's not discuss politics, ok? This really isn't the forum for it.
Quote:
Maybe that's even the fundamental problem -- the inability of evangelicals to see their views as personal, to deploy special pleading for their personal views because they allege it is also god's view.
The thing is....Christians ( and evangelicals, whatever that word means) live their faith out in their lives. We have a worldview, just as atheists do, and we live our lives according to it. That means that we want freedom to act as we wish, and we vote for candidates that we feel will facilitate the freedoms we want--just as you do.
 
Old 12-07-2017, 09:59 AM
 
Location: Divided Tribes of America
12,811 posts, read 4,883,119 times
Reputation: 4945
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424 View Post
It's not bankrupt on either account. It's fine intellectually, but is suffering because so many dopes and idiots are infiltrating it. It's being toyed with morally due to the same aforementioned types manipulating what it's truly about.

But just because these folks are trying to mess it up, the authentic/original way (as described in scripture and the Bible) remains intact. It's not much different from the political realm, where the Founding Fathers had the right ideas and healthy beginnings, but people abuse and reject them.

We shouldn't fault the original documents and original ways. We need to point the blame at those warping and ruining what was originally setup. The problem is with people, not the systems. We have to call out those causing problems in the name of Christianity, and continue to point out how far they stray from the Bible. Not enough are doing that, and those on the sidelines are often at fault too, and also part of the problem.
Are you referring to evangelical/ Fundamentalist Christianity? Or all of Christianity? I can’t help but detect a bit of “no true Scotsman” in your argument.

Evangelical Christianity is intellectually bankrupt because it makes claims that directly contradict most of science. There’s also zero evidence for its primary miracle claims. It’s morally bankrupt because it is obsessed with sexual purity and often opposes policies which would help correct historical injustices and help the desperate people at the bottom of the economic food chain.
 
Old 12-07-2017, 10:13 AM
Status: "Just crying wolf" (set 2 hours ago)
 
5,260 posts, read 1,304,368 times
Reputation: 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
Are you referring to evangelical/ Fundamentalist Christianity? Or all of Christianity? I can’t help but detect a bit of “no true Scotsman” in your argument.
It's a fallacy that often gets misapplied.

Fact is, we need to correctly identify who is and is not an adherent of a particular religion if we are to judge that religion. There is a valid concern there.
Quote:
Evangelical Christianity is intellectually bankrupt because it makes claims that directly contradict most of science. There’s also zero evidence for its primary miracle claims. It’s morally bankrupt because it is obsessed with sexual purity and often opposes policies which would help correct historical injustices and help the desperate people at the bottom of the economic food chain.
What exactly is "Evangelical Christianity"? Can you define it?
 
Old 12-07-2017, 10:13 AM
 
Location: Oklahoma
1,863 posts, read 638,227 times
Reputation: 860
On this, to a degree, I agree with your father. IMO, minority’s do more to suppress themselves(their culture) than any other influence.
 
Old 12-07-2017, 10:42 AM
 
Location: USA
2,923 posts, read 1,028,826 times
Reputation: 852
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
Have you read the rest of that verse?



I've never said I hate gays or anyone else. That seems to be a recurring theme -- lying about evangelicals and "fundamentalists" on here.

Maybe I should start a thread attacking whatever it is that you self-identify as.
I am not gay. But I can certainly see how a gay person might reach the conclusion that Christian "evangelicals and fundamentalists" virulently hate and despise them.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAo1pmaUxlY

Are ALL Christians insane? Well, a case could be made....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuAvRCSWu8I
 
Old 12-07-2017, 10:59 AM
Status: "Just crying wolf" (set 2 hours ago)
 
5,260 posts, read 1,304,368 times
Reputation: 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
I am not gay. But I can certainly see how a gay person might reach the conclusion that Christian "evangelicals and fundamentalists" virulently hate and despise them.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAo1pmaUxlY

Are ALL Christians insane? Well, a case could be made....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuAvRCSWu8I
shall I go find a case of a militant atheist or gay person is attacking Christianity and assume all are like that? Heck, I wouldn't have to go far, I'm sure I could do a search on this forum and find some examples.

But I'm smart enough to realize that fringe types do not define the entire group.
 
Old 12-07-2017, 11:08 AM
 
Location: USA
2,923 posts, read 1,028,826 times
Reputation: 852
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
shall I go find a case of a militant atheist or gay person is attacking Christianity and assume all are like that? Heck, I wouldn't have to go far, I'm sure I could do a search on this forum and find some examples.

But I'm smart enough to realize that fringe types do not define the entire group.
Like it or not, these people are the face of Christianity. Because these are the people that we see. The virulent hatred for gays as presented by conservative Christians is hardly a myth.
 
Old 12-07-2017, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,070 posts, read 8,530,146 times
Reputation: 6003
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
Which cases? Can you elaborate?
Cases where private behavior is repugnant to your ideology. Homosexuals. Transgender. Maybe in times past, smoking for all I know. It changes as time goes by.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
Again, you quite ironically judge me and state that I have a need to control others. No. I don't.
That's great. I'm faulting fundamentalist ideology. To the extent you don't subscribe to it ... does that mean you own it in any way as something that needs to change in the ideology or is that just dismissed as "not real Christians" that hold such views?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
Again....nowhere have I ever suggested that anyone is an evil sinners and needs to just do good. Do you realize that? On the contrary, we see Christians get attacked every day on this forum, calling us names and slandering us.
I do not see what one has to do with the other. If you reject the dogma that everyone is a sinner in need of repenting, then I suppose you do not necessarily think anyone is an evil sinner. On the other hand if you believe in total depravity and that everyone needs a savior, I do not see how you can NOT suggest that "some people are evil sinners and needs to just do good". Please enlighten me.

As for who is "attacking" you or not, that doesn't change the above discussion point, though it may, if you are really being "attacked", make it more difficult to discuss. I can only speak for myself; I'm not attacking you, I'm disagreeing perhaps, depending on what you clarify here, or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
Let's not discuss politics, ok? This really isn't the forum for it.
The point was not a political one, but an analogy that happened to use a very generic political example. You can address the point without saying anything political.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
The thing is....Christians ( and evangelicals, whatever that word means) live their faith out in their lives. We have a worldview, just as atheists do, and we live our lives according to it. That means that we want freedom to act as we wish, and we vote for candidates that we feel will facilitate the freedoms we want--just as you do.
I personally use the term "evangelical" to describe Christians with a literalist / inerrantist view of scripture and generally put primacy on creed (correct doctrine) over community -- who subscribe to the evangelical tradition within Christianity. I personally use "fundamentalist" to describe the more conservative subset of evangelicals, who tend to be more separatist, exclusivist, and authoritarian -- and therefore more controlling.

All Christians (even non-evangelicals, such as, say, liberals) "live their faith out" according to how they view what that means. They all seek to influence society whether it is through, for example, denying marriage equality or some "social justice warrior" activist position that would be contrary to that. Christian beliefs are entirely subjective in that way, and arrive at contradictory views all the time, depending on what you choose to emphasize and ignore in the scriptures, and how you choose to interpret and contextualize it.

By contrast, atheists do not, inherently, have detailed or consistent beliefs about anything other than whether or not any gods are likely to exist and therefore are worthy of justified belief, although you can generally count on us to be at least nominally rationalists, empiricists, and skeptics, by virtue of the fact that's how most of us arrive at atheism to begin with. While we are actually far less inherently activist since our position is fundamentally indifferentist, we DO push back against the kinds of things fundamentalists tend to be activist about when those positions infringe on the rights of others.

To confine this discussion to generic points as if they weren't ultimately political, I think it's fair to say that an atheist will tend to argue against any sort of control over individual choice for which no objectively demonstrable harms can be argued, but rather, arguments must be based on dogma, theological systems, and/or holy books. Put another way -- where dogma, theology or holy writ happens to substantially agree with facts, figures, science, and experienced reality concerning harms (e.g., generally, murder) we have no issue with it at all, other than the general belief that having sound and good reasons for objecting to a behavior are better than having religious reasons.
 
Old 12-07-2017, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Chicago area
12,975 posts, read 7,163,953 times
Reputation: 49855
Oh Lordy. Sometimes I wish that religion was as obsolete as punishing people for who they were born to be. Lets start a new religion based on accept, respect, live and let live. Radical thinking on either side is a right we all have, but when it crosses over into another's belief system, then that's just not acceptable. Go hold your rattlesnakes, but don't expect the rest of us to follow in your footsteps. Why can't we all just get along?
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