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Well of course atheists are going to deny that they hate God. To do otherwise would be to acknowledge an acceptance on even a minimum level that God does exist.
There are many possible motivations for unbelief. Hatred would be but one. You are not clairvoyant. You would have to ask me what my reasons are, and if you are not willing to give credence to my answers, what would you do then? You would not ask, and would not listen when given reasons, and then you would concoct a reason that suits your agenda. As you consistently do.
The question is why are you not willing to ask? The only reason I can think of, boiled down to its essence, is that your beliefs have no evidential basis to begin with and therefore what's REALLY going on here is YOU are projecting on me what your real issue is: to acknowledge that I could have the slightest intellectually or empirically valid objection to your god hypothesis is to acknowledge that there COULD be valid objections.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
And when I started debating atheists, my first brick wall was this stubborn stance that God absolutely does not exist. I found that nearly every atheist I encountered just almost had the inability to admit that their viewpoint could be wrong about anything.
A strong conviction is not equivalent to stubbornness, or what you really mean by that, which is willful resistance to what YOU have the inability to admit could possibly be wrong. Here again, pure projection.
I can admit that I'm wrong about alot of things. I was wrong about the existence of god, the existence of the claimed heaven-dispensed and superior morality of fundamentalists, and I was wrong about the eventual ability of digital video to match and surpass the quality of film, the good will and trustworthiness of my first wife -- just a boatload of stuff.
Your real issue is that I will not randomly admit to being wrong about just any old thing and YOUR old thing in particular.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
I can respect a viewpoint that simply answers the question Does God exist with "I don't know".
But with a few exceptions, almost every atheist refuses to even open their mind to the possibility.
Can you really, because that is my stance, and the stance of most atheists. Your real issue is that we are open only to belief to the extent that your truth claims are likely to be accurate -- which is vanishingly small. It's one thing to say there might be sentient lampshades living on the fourth planet of Proxima Centauri, it's another thing to give evidence to make one think that likely. I don't know if such a thing exists, but I don't believe that it does.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Nope, there is no God. That's a fact. They will ask for evidence, but that is only to serve as a test to dismantle the evidence immediately, pile on logical arguments, stereotypes, and mock Christians all as reinforcement to that wall.
We ask for evidence and get assertions, appeals to authority, verses from a holy book, theological platitudes and logical fallacies. If you don't want it rejected and dismantled then provide actual evidence.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Which brings me to the question, why? Why are atheists so venomously opposed to a faith that teaches love and forgiveness?
I'm not opposed to love and forgiveness. But this is like tobacco companies asking why, why are people opposed to a company that donates money to this and that cause? It's a non-sequitur. If RJ Reynolds donates to Save the Children, I am not against saving the children because I am against RJ Reynolds. There are, just maybe, other issues I have in mind.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Why do they dedicate hours and hours every day to tearing down Christians online?
Because they think it's a good use of their time in countering significant social harm.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Why do they feel the need to turn almost every discussion with me instead of something personal and ugly?
Unintended incoherency here so not sure exactly what you're saying, but I'm guessing along the lines of why won't you discuss rather than persecuting me. Well, you start actually discussing and you'll find how quickly it will change.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Why do they study the Bible, not for truth, but to use it as a weapon against us?
Many of us studied it for truth for decades and found it wanting. Now we expose that for what it is.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Why do they seek to tear down a faith that gives people hope and meaning in a very difficult reality?
Again ... for the same reason I'd critique a tobacco company despite that their product calms people and helps them cope with an anxiety-inducing reality.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Why do they feel the need to use extreme derogatory language like calling God a sick psychopath?
It is derogatory only if untrue. Even then it is a perception, a view and an opinion that should be addressed on the basis it rests rather than disparaged as forbidden talk. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Why are they so flipping extreme in their atheism that they can't even say that a Christian band or artist makes great music or a Christian movie was good?
Because most are not. Although I will say that back in the day I enjoyed some Christian musical artists and some of those have crossed over into the secular world with me. Others have not, but I still think they were pretty good back in the day, within the limitations theology imposed on the relevance of their art.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
The answer is pretty clear to me. Under all that blanket lies a hatred for God.
But of course you will deny it. You HAVE to.
Actually it is you who deny that any atheist could have a reasonable basis for unbelief, But you will deny it. Because you HAVE to.
If not, prove me wrong. Say here and now that it is POSSIBLE for someone to not believe your dogma for reasons OTHER than hatred.
Then admit you're not omnipotent and would not assume the arrogant stance that NO unbeliever anywhere has a reason other than hatred.
The irony is that the posts of atheists here serve to prove my points. Even this very thread which was based not on anything really factual but just the opinion of some atheist who has a thing against Bible believing Christians. To label us as morally bankrupt is outrageously offensive. Yet if I dare broad stroke atheists in the same way, you seem to think that is so wrong. I read beyond the lines. Beyond the thin mask of atheism. Simply saying I am wrong doesn't prove me wrong. You have to do better than that to change my opinion. It would start by just being friendly and playing fair. One thing you will almost never hear from an atheist, "You know, <<Christian person>>, you made a really good point there."
Well, since you'e being stubborn and refusing to simply accept that you have it wrong, let's do it bit y bit.
Not that it would make any difference as you are still going to reject it whether i explain the points or not, so your reasoning is all skewed before you even start.
Well of course atheists are going to deny that they hate God. To do otherwise would be to acknowledge an acceptance on even a minimum level that God does exist.
Garbage. We canot hate what we do not believe exists. We may oppose and disapprove of the religion and even be antagonistic to the influence it has, and we may see the mythical being in the Bible as an appalling creature, but that is nothing to do with hating God. And by saying that we don't hate God any more than we hate Allah (though we may not approve of the religion) that does not do a single solitary thing to make the existence of a god more probable to us. You are simply Dead Wrong.
And when I started debating atheists, my first brick wall was this stubborn stance that God absolutely does not exist.
That may be how it look yo you since you have been unable to produce any decent evidence for the existence of this postulated god, nor have you been able to browbeat, harass or nag atheists into accepting it - and that is how I perceive your posts, Jeff - little credible evidence other than dodgy videos of supposed miracle cures, and bullying us if we don't swallow them at face value. P I had to laugh at your post when you dismissed 'anecdotal evidence' when it suited us, but you expect us to accept yours.
I found that nearly every atheist I encountered just almost had the inability to admit that their viewpoint could be wrong about anything. I can respect a viewpoint that simply answers the question Does God exist with "I don't know".
But that is the bottom line of the God -belief. question: "We don't know". and the logic is, if you don't know that something exists, you do not believe in it until there good reason to. It is the stubborn illogic of a Faith that a god does exist and a irritated rejection of 'Nobody knows" that is the stubborn stance of the god -beleiver, even after the failure of the ID arguments and the universe, Earth and life looking more and more like it wasn't designed.
But of course it isn't that sorta god we are talking about. It is the God of the Bible remastered as Buddy Jesus that we are talking about and even then we technically can't be certain, but we are all but certain that, if a god does exist (and I'd give that 5% at most) I'd give Biblegod only a token 0.5%
The idea that, if there was any decent evidence, you wouldn't have difficulty persuading us seems foreign to you. But instead of decent evidence, you seem to prefer to bash us with the bad character of an atheism and atheists that seem to exist only in your imagination.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 12-28-2017 at 10:02 AM..
Yes. Since the Dover-Kitzmiller ruling Creationism has been trying to find variouas ways around it.
Redefining science to be anything Church authorities say it is.
Saying that I/D is nothing to do with belief in a particular god.
"Teach the controversy" (there is no controversy - other than from creationists) or teach Creationism as well as evolution. I posted a video a while back showing how this worked in practice. Evolution was pissed on by the Creationist teacher (by talking nonsense about it) while creationism was praised to the skies.
Blatant disregard of the ruling by school boards stuffed with Baptist Fundies who simply go ahead and have creationism taught in the science class.
My only point of disagreement is that there is no controversy about it.
The irony is that the posts of atheists here serve to prove my points. Even this very thread which was based not on anything really factual but just the opinion of some atheist who has a thing against Bible believing Christians. To label us as morally bankrupt is outrageously offensive. Yet if I dare broad stroke atheists in the same way, you seem to think that is so wrong. I read beyond the lines. Beyond the thin mask of atheism. Simply saying I am wrong doesn't prove me wrong. You have to do better than that to change my opinion. It would start by just being friendly and playing fair. One thing you will almost never hear from an atheist, "You know, <<Christian person>>, you made a really good point there."
Good grief Didn't Shiina get the same crafty trick from from wossizbname...'Play nice" Offering a truce which was "You be polite and respectful to me and my beliefs and don't take issue with my denunciations of atheism".
Not a chance Jeff . Ok so the title is provocative, I agree. So counter it rather than play the Hurt Martyr card. How do you think we atheists feel when we are told that we have no morals, that we are deluded by Satan, that we are going to Hell and as you did here try to get us in a false trap of saying that we must either hate God or believe in it. Which really makes no sense, but is just as I say a crummy attempt to create a trap.
But none of that seems wrong, rude or offensive to you. It never occurs to you that "The fool hath said in his heart.." is the oldest and most popular smear of atheism and it is damn' rude. You no doubt think that telling the truth is more out of a spirit of love, and if the terms are hard -hitting, it is justified.
Well, that's how it is with uis. If we are harsh with the character of Biblegod, it' because that is how it is, and if we say it is blinkered to ignore all the vile and horrific stuff in the Bible and just see it as all love and kindness, it's because that is what it is, and, while believers do take it all very personally, it isn't ever personal.
P.s I note that you dismiss 'anecdotal evidence' out of hand. But you expect us to accept dodgy Healing Miracle videos at face value.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 12-28-2017 at 10:48 AM..
Originally Posted by fishbrains
See above, but speaking for myself it is about 20 minutes a day while eating breakfast and drinking tea.
Jef's reply
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Anecdotal evidence is irrelevant.
I commented on that above. But this made me smile.
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:Originally Posted by fishbrains
I have studied the Bible in the past, although I no longer do. I studied it for truth, and found contradictions, confusion, ugliness and hate.
Jeff's reply
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Then you didn't study it very well.
For someone who is so critical of our tone of voice, Jeff, you don't mince words. Indeed, if you failed to not the viciousness, misery, immorality and evil in the Bible that we Blind sinners can see quite clearly, maybe it's you who doesn't Understand it very well (1). Let me explain to you the difference between hating the sin and hating the sinner.
If you hate the sin, you leave it to God, but you warn the sinner. If you take action against them, to force your views on them, or take away their rights or indoctrinate their kids, that come across as Hate. That's what we call it. It's for sure what you call it when atheists Do Something about it.
And when was the last time, Jeff you ever admitted that we had made a good point, never mind clobbered every point you made? Never that I can recall. Rather you started to play the 'You are all so very wude and so I must be right" card, or just strode out the thread without a word and damn' me if you don't pop up a week later saying the same stuff!.
(1) I suppose I have to give some examples: Mark 3.33-on, Matthew 10 34 -on, Luke 12. 49 and 10.13 and 10.21. And 7.47, when you think about it, isn't so brilliant, either. And for good measure and get some nasty from all four John 10.44.
Not got it? Try this on as a hypocrisy -hat. Matth 15.5 compare with - 8.22 and 19.21.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 12-28-2017 at 11:27 AM..
Good grief Didn't Shiina get the same crafty trick from from wossizbname...'Play nice" Offering a truce which was "You be polite and respectful to me and my beliefs and don't take issue with my denunciations of atheism".
Not a chance Jeff . Ok so the title is provocative, I agree. So counter it rather than play the Hurt Martyr card. How do think we atheists feel when we are told that we have no morals, that we are deluded by satan, that we are going to Hell and as you did here try to get us in a false trap of saying that we must either hate God or believe in it. Which really makes no sense, but is just as I say a crummy attempt to create a trap.
So basically you are saying that it is impossible to have a civilized respectful conversation in regards to Christianity. That's pretty sad. I can disagree with someone without having to resort to personal insults or venomous adjectives. It's the difference between telling me that you think God is a sick psychopath vs just saying that you don't agree with God's actions. Both statements convey the same message, but one is designed as venting. If our beliefs offend you then why do you provoke us on such topics? I find dog fighting to be offensive. It would be like me getting mad for having a debate with a dog fighter and he tells me how much fun it is to see the dogs suffer. And then I am offended.
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
But none of that seems wrong, rude or offensive to you. It never occurs to you that "The fool hath said in his heart.." is the oldest and most popular smear of atheism and it is damn' rude. You no doubt think that telling the truth is more out of a spirit of love, and if the terms are hard -hitting, it is justified.
Well, that's how it is with uis. If we are harsh with the character of Biblegod, it' because that is how it is, and if we say it is blinkered to ignore all the vile and horrific stuff in the Bible and just see it as all love and kindness, it's because that is what it is, and, while believers do take it all very personally, it isn't ever personal.
The only thing you do isolate a Biblical passage and refuse to look at it in the proper context. While completely ignoring the beautiful wonderful things God does. A fair judge looks at all aspects, not just the one that fits preconceived notions.
I found this article that perfectly describes the same experience I have with atheists so you can't say it's just me coming away with this impression.
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But if one takes a look at just about any active combox underneath an atheist post that has anything at all to do with Christianity, the usual boorish, garden variety collection of insults will be immediately observed:
Christians are gullible, infantile believers of fairy tales on the level of unicorns, Peter Pan and Tinkerbell, the Easter bunny, leprechauns, “magic,” the tooth fairy, etc. We are anti-intellectual, anti-science, dumb, stupid, idiots, ignoramuses, and imbeciles who are impervious to evidence of any kind for our beliefs. We have a blind faith that is shielded from reason, fact, and any possible falsifiability. You name it: we’ve been called it by the sadly typical “angry / hostile” atheist.
Any curious human being, it seems to me, who observes this behavior, must marvel at both its near-universality and the extreme level of passion and vitriol involved.
Well of course atheists are going to deny that they hate God. To do otherwise would be to acknowledge an acceptance on even a minimum level that God does exist. And when I started debating atheists, my first brick wall was this stubborn stance that God absolutely does not exist. I found that nearly every atheist I encountered just almost had the inability to admit that their viewpoint could be wrong about anything. I can respect a viewpoint that simply answers the question Does God exist with "I don't know". But with a few exceptions, almost every atheist refuses to even open their mind to the possibility. Nope, there is no God. That's a fact.They will ask for evidence, but that is only to serve as a test to dismantle the evidence immediately, pile on logical arguments, stereotypes, and mock Christians all as reinforcement to that wall.
Which brings me to the question, why? Why are atheists so venomously opposed to a faith that teaches love and forgiveness? Why do they dedicate hours and hours every day to tearing down Christians online? Why do they feel the need to turn almost every discussion with me instead of something personal and ugly? Why do they study the Bible, not for truth, but to use it as a weapon against us? Why do they seek to tear down a faith that gives people hope and meaning in a very difficult reality?Why do they feel the need to use extreme derogatory language like calling God a sick psychopath?Why are they so flipping extreme in their atheism that they can't even say that a Christian band or artist makes great music or a Christian movie was good? The answer is pretty clear to me. Under all that blanket lies a hatred for God.
But of course you will deny it. You HAVE to.
1. I'm going to tell you about me. I don't speak for all atheists. To me, with what I have been through in my life and with what I have seen in my life, there are 3 possibilities: there is no god, there is a deist god, or I hate god. So that blows most of your rant.
2. Yes, we don't believe god exists. Because we see no evidence, other than evidence CREATED by man.
3. Sorry, but virtually every atheist whose posts I have read seem willing to concede that there is a god when you provide actual evidence (faith is not evidence).
4. And you folks don't "pile on [your] logical arguments, stereotypes [of atheists and other non-Christians?], and mock Christians [atheists and other non-Christians?]". This is a very good example of needing to remove the beam out of your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye. [Let's see now...where did that little saying come from???]
5. I don't see a lot of forgiveness on the part of public Christians. More common are condemnations.
6. Why do you spend hours on here condemning atheists?
7. The Old Testament (as opposed to the New Testament) is full of behaviors of god that if a man did them would be called psychopathic.
8. I have heard Christian music that shows talent, but dismiss the basis of the lyrics. Same with a few isolated films.
9. I don't see that much is clear to you at all.
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Didn't Shiina get the same crafty trick from from wossizbname...'Play nice" Offering a truce which was "You be polite and respectful to me and my beliefs and don't take issue with my denunciations of atheism".
. Ok so the title is provocative, I agree. So counter it rather than play the Hurt Martyr card. How do you think we atheists feel when we are told that we have no morals, that we are deluded by Satan, that we are going to Hell and as you did here try to get us in a false trap of saying that we must either hate God or believe in it. Which really makes no sense, but is just as I say a crummy attempt to create a trap.