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Old 01-13-2018, 01:20 AM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
5,296 posts, read 2,409,460 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
What I would really respect would be if Christians could just admit that they can't prove most of what's in the Bible, but believe it on faith.
Indeed!
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Old 01-16-2018, 06:26 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
24,798 posts, read 13,316,413 times
Reputation: 9333
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
What I would really respect would be if Christians could just admit that they can't prove most of what's in the Bible, but believe it on faith.
You are correct... Christianity is primarily a faith based endeavor.

That doesn't mean the events contained in the Bible didn't happen.

Let's just say... it's on the same level as the Crusades many like to cite as part of the supposed violent nature of Christians. Those people put faith in those accounts and cite them regularly whenever convenient.
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Old 01-16-2018, 06:33 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
16,911 posts, read 8,015,650 times
Reputation: 16698
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
You are correct... Christianity is primarily a faith based endeavor.

That doesn't mean the events contained in the Bible didn't happen.

Let's just say... it's on the same level as the Crusades many like to cite as part of the supposed violent nature of Christians. Those people put faith in those accounts and cite them regularly whenever convenient.
Don't whitewash it.

I don't care if the events in the bible happened or not (well, I do, but not in this particular context). I do care when someone says the bible proves the events happened. The Bible is one book that even many Christians say is full of allegories and fables. And you can't have it both ways.

What someone says about the Crusades will have to stand on its own.
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Old 01-16-2018, 09:02 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
24,798 posts, read 13,316,413 times
Reputation: 9333
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Don't whitewash it.

I don't care if the events in the bible happened or not (well, I do, but not in this particular context). I do care when someone says the bible proves the events happened. The Bible is one book that even many Christians say is full of allegories and fables. And you can't have it both ways.

What someone says about the Crusades will have to stand on its own.
Can't have it both ways... you will believe in Crusades, but not the Bible... even though both took place a long time ago. It's either both or neither.

There are Christians who are not really Christians floating around. The Bible contains different types of writing and it should be taken in the intent of each author. There are no fables. There is symbolism. There is history and poetry and prophecy.
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Old 01-16-2018, 09:32 PM
 
Location: Western Washington
7,067 posts, read 7,093,873 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Can't have it both ways... you will believe in Crusades, but not the Bible... even though both took place a long time ago. It's either both or neither.

That is simply not true. It can be one or the other as well.

The Crusades are incredibly well documented. From the initial pleas of Alexius Comnenus for troops, the sermon preached by Pope Urban II launching the crusade, the Gesta Francorum, written by one of Bohemondís vassals as the first crusade actually happened, to the diaries of Anna Comnena documenting the crusaders stay in Byzantium, among others. After that we see institutions that were formed as a result of the Crusades, such as the Knights Templar and Hospitallar. We have documented political changes, such as the conquering of the cities of Edessa, Jerusalem, Antioch and Tripoli. We have castles and churches that were built. We have trade records. That is before we get to any of the archaeological evidence, burial grounds, etc.

That is only for the first crusade. There are 6 or seven more with different sets of documentation.

The evidence for the Crusades is staggeringly overwhelming. The evidence of the events of the gospel are slim.
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Old 01-16-2018, 09:54 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
16,911 posts, read 8,015,650 times
Reputation: 16698
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Can't have it both ways... you will believe in Crusades, but not the Bible... even though both took place a long time ago. It's either both or neither.

There are Christians who are not really Christians floating around. The Bible contains different types of writing and it should be taken in the intent of each author. There are no fables. There is symbolism. There is history and poetry and prophecy.
What did I just say. The truth about the Crusades is something that will have to stand on its own. We're talking about the bible. And as to the bible, you may believe anything you like...and apparently you do.
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Old 01-16-2018, 10:09 PM
 
32,590 posts, read 7,928,795 times
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There it is , yet again 'Believe..or Not. Apparently to believe everything written in books (those claimed as not fiction, anyway) or reject all of them, and the supportive evidence seems to be entirely siedelined.

It really seems to be 'accept the faith -claims or reject them'. And the basis oif of course Godfaith. Either you accept on Faith the God doctrines and Holy books (and anything that supports it) on Faith and reject anything that conflicts (no matter how well supported - and we know that is how it works) or (so the argument goes) one must (logically ) reject ell books, no matter how well supported by evidence, which is a perfectly good reason to believe stuff (1) that doesn't conflict with their faith.

It's a bit similar to the 'they laughed at powered flight' fallacy. If we deny the claims of scripture, then we out to deny all other books, which is like 'If we don't accept the god -claim, we are like those who denied poered flight.

But they were right to - until it was validated. And we are right to doubt the god -claim -until it is validated.

And if they demand acceptance of the scriptures on Faith, why aren't the others equally valid?

Well, we know why. Their Faith is true and the faith of the others is false, and they know this to be so - on faith. The more you unpack this 'believe -or not' mindset the worse it looks.

(1) cue Raff's list of "Acceptable science'.
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Old 01-16-2018, 11:07 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
24,798 posts, read 13,316,413 times
Reputation: 9333
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains View Post
That is simply not true. It can be one or the other as well.

The Crusades are incredibly well documented. From the initial pleas of Alexius Comnenus for troops, the sermon preached by Pope Urban II launching the crusade, the Gesta Francorum, written by one of Bohemond’s vassals as the first crusade actually happened, to the diaries of Anna Comnena documenting the crusaders stay in Byzantium, among others. After that we see institutions that were formed as a result of the Crusades, such as the Knights Templar and Hospitallar. We have documented political changes, such as the conquering of the cities of Edessa, Jerusalem, Antioch and Tripoli. We have castles and churches that were built. We have trade records. That is before we get to any of the archaeological evidence, burial grounds, etc.

That is only for the first crusade. There are 6 or seven more with different sets of documentation.

The evidence for the Crusades is staggeringly overwhelming. The evidence of the events of the gospel are slim.
I got it... you choose to believe the account of the Crusades... you choose not to believe the Bible - which also has plenty of evidence. Just look up the various kings in the Bible and compare with the history books.

Or... prove to me that the Crusades happened, other than showing me a book with someone else's material. If you are just going to show me someone else's writings and say that's proof, I will do the same with the Bible.
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Old 01-16-2018, 11:09 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
24,798 posts, read 13,316,413 times
Reputation: 9333
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
What did I just say. The truth about the Crusades is something that will have to stand on its own. We're talking about the bible. And as to the bible, you may believe anything you like...and apparently you do.
The Bible certainly stands on its own... and will stand forever.
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Old 01-16-2018, 11:54 PM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
5,296 posts, read 2,409,460 times
Reputation: 2651
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Can't have it both ways... you will believe in Crusades, but not the Bible... even though both took place a long time ago. It's either both or neither.

There are Christians who are not really Christians floating around. The Bible contains different types of writing and it should be taken in the intent of each author. There are no fables. There is symbolism. There is history and poetry and prophecy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
The Bible certainly stands on its own... and will stand forever.
At least the crusades are believable. There are no accounts of people floating up into the clouds or seas parting for the crusaders to cross or striking rocks with a staff to produce water for the crusaders. No feeding the hungry crusaders in their thousands with five loaves and three fish.
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