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Old 12-31-2017, 03:26 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,070 posts, read 8,539,462 times
Reputation: 6003

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Well if the origins of life is not an issue with those who believe in the TOE why so many posts like this one?

And why do people get so bent out of shape when I tell them the origins of life has nothing to do with the TOE.

Seems to me, ( even though you two admit it is not a part of the TOE) that many do believe it is part of the TOE and take it as a whole.

Otherwise I would not be getting some of the responses I have gotten.
Yes, it the conflation is very typical. But a conflation it is nevertheless.

The irony is that evolution does not disprove creation. Theistic evolution takes advantage of this. It posits that god created life, and then left it to evolve according to the TOE.

The problem then with the TOE is pretty much limited to Biblical literalists, whose belief that god created everything in six literal days and the notion that the earth is just a few thousand years old is contradicted by the millions of years needed by evolution. To contradict what literalists believe scripture says, is a form of blasphemy.

In any case ... criticizing the TOE on the basis of something it make no claims concerning neither harms the TOE nor helps the cause of Biblical literalism.
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Old 12-31-2017, 04:10 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
18,771 posts, read 8,818,298 times
Reputation: 18201
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
...

The irony is that evolution does not disprove creation. Theistic evolution takes advantage of this. It posits that god created life, and then left it to evolve according to the TOE.

The problem then with the TOE is pretty much limited to Biblical literalists, whose belief that god created everything in six literal days and the notion that the earth is just a few thousand years old is contradicted by the millions of years needed by evolution. To contradict what literalists believe scripture says, is a form of blasphemy.

In any case ... criticizing the TOE on the basis of something it make no claims concerning neither harms the TOE nor helps the cause of Biblical literalism.
It would seem to me that if a religious person accepted that (bolded), then he would be accepting the concept of a deistic god, rather than a theistic god.
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Old 12-31-2017, 08:01 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,070 posts, read 8,539,462 times
Reputation: 6003
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
It would seem to me that if a religious person accepted that (bolded), then he would be accepting the concept of a deistic god, rather than a theistic god.
Theistic evolution has long been popular amongst liberal Christians. I do not think it necessarily implies deism, as most believers in this concept that I've encountered, still believe god is at least somewhat interventionist. Some think he lets evolution operate on its own, others that he subtly directs it. Neither view is necessarily incompatible with the idea that god takes an interest in what one eats for breakfast.

It is just a way to take Christianity out of active conflict with science; also, those folks are exactly the ones who would be likely to regard the Biblical accounts of the creation, the fall, and the flood as parables or metaphorical stories.
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Old 12-31-2017, 08:06 PM
NCN
 
Location: NC/SC Border Patrol
21,136 posts, read 21,096,010 times
Reputation: 23163
People either believe or they don't. You get to choose and live with the consequences.
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Old 01-01-2018, 12:50 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
13,810 posts, read 9,625,411 times
Reputation: 2381
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
To believe God created the heavens and earth is a faith based claim and part of our worldview. To believe life sprang from nothing is a faith based claim and your worldview, at least I can acknowledge what I believe is based on faith and science, you guys on the other hand say your worldview is based only on science yet no science can tell you how life began.
Science doesn't say that live sprang from nothing. It's you creationists that claim that...that your god just clicked his fingers so to speak and life appeared, where beforehand, there was none. It's ironic that you accuse science of a claim that THEY don't make and creationists DO.

Quote:
Yup the millions and millions of transitional fossils we should have are simply not there and the ones we do have are being argued over all the time so what you say is written in stone as it were has not been proven. However your worldview will not let you accept that.
What are you expecting to find? Something like this perhaps...



If you want to see a transitional form you simply have to go an look in a mirror. You will see a transition of what your species was 500 years ago and what it will be in 500 years time. Go to a museum and look at the suits of armour that were worn by big, burly knights 500 years ago. Today, an average 16 youth would have a problem getting into one.

Quote:
And if all you are going to do is tell me that origin evolution is a scientific fact without any evidence (remember you said no one knows how life began) then we would both be wasting our time.
Clearly, you just don't know the difference between abiogenesis and evolution?

Last edited by Rafius; 01-01-2018 at 12:58 AM..
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Old 01-01-2018, 12:52 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
13,810 posts, read 9,625,411 times
Reputation: 2381
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
That is nothing more then a religious rant and has nothing to do with anything I said. Yes evolution is true, even creationist can agree with that. However evolutionists will not admit that there is a difference between origin or historical evolution (dino to bird) and evolution between kind/species.
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Old 01-01-2018, 02:26 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 3,984,977 times
Reputation: 385
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Ok I'll bite. What is the evidence for Creation?(1) I once had a thread on this asking for evidence for creation. Do you know, there was only one person who after searching all the Creationist sites, came up with two bits of supportive evidence - and that was me. That was Polonium haloes and recent -date diamonds.

You are all my mates Even Arach, although I have him on ignore simply cause I don't have time to waste.

(1) it is not 'well science cannot prove how the universe started". That means 'Nobody knows" rather than "Must be Biblegod".
I will get back to you in a couple of days on this trans (16hr. work days for the next 2 days) as long as the mods are open to this. don't want to get dinged with a suspension for breaking the rules.
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Old 01-01-2018, 03:08 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 3,984,977 times
Reputation: 385
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Yes, it the conflation is very typical. But a conflation it is nevertheless.

The irony is that evolution does not disprove creation. Theistic evolution takes advantage of this. It posits that god created life, and then left it to evolve according to the TOE.

The problem then with the TOE is pretty much limited to Biblical literalists, whose belief that god created everything in six literal days and the notion that the earth is just a few thousand years old is contradicted by the millions of years needed by evolution. To contradict what literalists believe scripture says, is a form of blasphemy.

In any case ... criticizing the TOE on the basis of something it make no claims concerning neither harms the TOE nor helps the cause of Biblical literalism.
However many people, from both sides of the camp, do lump them together and speak of them as a whole.
When this happens those who know better should speak up because it does neither side a favor to let the confusion continue.

The problem is that if a Christian speaks out on this those who think it is part of the TOE start in with attacking the Christian ( as has been witnessed), but if the atheist or evolutionist would back the Christian up on this (as you and trans have just done) it gives, hopefully, them pause to think and possibly a friendly discussion can ensue. I am open for discussion, but I do get tired of people attacking me because I don't see things the way they want me to or attacking my motives for asking questions as though I am asking them for other reasons then to learn. I believe in putting the cards on the table to see what will become of them.

Also you guys look at my posts in the wrong way, thinking I am challenging YOUR worldview, but I am really challenging my own worldview. That might seem strange to you guys but it is the way I have always done things. My worldview use to believe in eternal torment in a fiery hell, but I challenged that worldview and found out that it is not what the scriptures say at all, so my worldview changed.

I look at it this way, if my worldview is correct it will stand the test and my faith/belief will be stronger, if it does not stand the test then I need to rethink things. Most people from both sides of the camp seem to be scared to do this, they don't want their worldview to change, they are happy the way they see things and get upset if someones looks to them like they are attacking their worldview. But I am NOT attacking your guys worldview, I am challenging MINE.

So with that said can we have a peaceful discussion without you guys attacking my motives (if the mods are willing of course)

I will wait to here from the mods on this before posting again as I don't want to get dinged with an infraction.

Hopefully some of you guys are open to discussion, if not I will just have to wade through a bunch of crap on the internet to try and find my answers to things.

Talk later.
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Old 01-01-2018, 03:21 AM
 
34,209 posts, read 8,794,944 times
Reputation: 4768
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCN View Post
People either believe or they don't. You get to choose and live with the consequences.
But the problem seems to be that half America is choosing wrongly and we are all having to live with the consequences.
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Old 01-01-2018, 03:28 AM
 
34,209 posts, read 8,794,944 times
Reputation: 4768
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
I will get back to you in a couple of days on this trans (16hr. work days for the next 2 days) as long as the mods are open to this. don't want to get dinged with a suspension for breaking the rules.
I'm sure the thread can be bumped up for this. Remember - evidence (scientific evidence, not the Bible, please_ for creation, not just trying to debunk evolution, never mind rying to put atheist apologists into a false position by asking why there are so many posts like this (because creationists keep trying to debunk evolution) or claiming that we conflate abiogenesis and evolution through we repeatedly say that evolution theory is not about the origins of life but the origins of species.
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