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Old 12-30-2017, 10:58 PM
 
Location: Northern California
436 posts, read 166,570 times
Reputation: 551

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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
That's quite the intellectual argument.
The Bible is believed via Faith from God.

You first must have a genuine interest in believing it.

Otherwise it's sorta like that warning tossing pearls to swine

NOT that you are swine but since it isn't intellectually based, meaning based on the finite mind, you really cannot get far.

My husband doesn't believe in God. But what he knows about the bible is true. It is cryptic for a reason, you really need to have your heart in it to unlock what it says. So I've learned to just limit efforts to those people whether they become believers or not. It really isn't my doing at all but just being used by God as his instrument to those who are genuinely interested

There is also a correlation to people becoming saved. Many do so when their circumstances are dire or thru a mental breakdown when there is no one, or nothing else to rely on which has been effective. That's when often thy Great Healer, the creator of our beings and bodies, comes down to do his work.
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Old 12-30-2017, 11:00 PM
 
Location: Northern California
436 posts, read 166,570 times
Reputation: 551
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424 View Post
There is a standard in place that makes for comparison between people and them being "Christian". It's detailed in the Gospels of the New Testament (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John). However, only God can make the accurate determination.

Yes, we can listen with others say they're this or that. But, as I've pointed out in other posts, just because someone - for example - calls his or herself a Christian, doesn't make it so in God's eyes. If they are hating others, wishing death and murder on others, judging others, and other highly forbidden acts that Jesus spoke out against, chances are, they will not be recognized by God. There is a verse about him saying to effect "Not all who say Lord, Lord will see the kingdom of heaven. They will call out to me, but I will say 'Get away from me, I do not know you'". That's paraphrased, but the basic point.

There are many these days who are highly deluded, completely blind to their actions and ways. They can call themselves bird-people if they want, but if they don't have feathers or can fly... you know. We are known by our actions and lives, not by our words and labels. Genuine Christians will stand out as being reflective of Jesus. They never have to say they are "Christians"; it isn't even necessary. On the other hand, the ones that go around throwing around that label are the ones to watch out for.
Yes, genuine Christians will generally stand out being reflective of Christ. Good wording

Some are newer to the faith so per Colossians, still in the putting on and off of the old self phase. We all are in transition to some extent but moreso in the beginning.

We are to judge their fruits, hence how we comply with other commands such as the church is made up of believers. Do not be unequally yoked, etc..

To judge their fruits is a command.Those that are not saved and behave as such are to be mentored, and at times, under church discipline. Unbelievers do not go under church discipline. Also the preaching and teaching is geared towards believers who understand what is said. Church is not for the unsaved. Church is a body of believers

Only God knows the heart. We judge the outer though. Otherwise we would never know who our eternal family is.

It's sort of like how we are to be judged. Not for our sins which were covered by the blood on the cross but for our good works. And rewarded with crowns in heaven.

Last edited by Cyclist1968; 12-31-2017 at 12:05 AM..
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Old 12-31-2017, 12:19 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
18,614 posts, read 8,698,684 times
Reputation: 18069
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclist1968 View Post
The Bible is believed via Faith from God.

You first must have a genuine interest in believing it.

Otherwise it's sorta like that warning tossing pearls to swine

NOT that you are swine but since it isn't intellectually based, meaning based on the finite mind, you really cannot get far.

My husband doesn't believe in God. But what he knows about the bible is true. It is cryptic for a reason, you really need to have your heart in it to unlock what it says. So I've learned to just limit efforts to those people whether they become believers or not. It really isn't my doing at all but just being used by God as his instrument to those who are genuinely interested

There is also a correlation to people becoming saved. Many do so when their circumstances are dire or thru a mental breakdown when there is no one, or nothing else to rely on which has been effective. That's when often thy Great Healer, the creator of our beings and bodies, comes down to do his work.
Well that's good because I don't have the slightest interest in reading that foolish old book again. Oink, oink.
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Old 12-31-2017, 12:37 AM
 
Location: Northern California
436 posts, read 166,570 times
Reputation: 551
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Well that's good because I don't have the slightest interest in reading that foolish old book again. Oink, oink.
alright *snort*
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Old 12-31-2017, 08:35 AM
 
Location: Western Washington
7,584 posts, read 7,421,133 times
Reputation: 13198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclist1968 View Post
The Bible is believed via Faith from God.

You first must have a genuine interest in believing it.

Otherwise it's sorta like that warning tossing pearls to swine

NOT that you are swine but since it isn't intellectually based, meaning based on the finite mind, you really cannot get far.

My husband doesn't believe in God. But what he knows about the bible is true. It is cryptic for a reason, you really need to have your heart in it to unlock what it says. So I've learned to just limit efforts to those people whether they become believers or not. It really isn't my doing at all but just being used by God as his instrument to those who are genuinely interested
I see this as problematic. Allegedly god is the creator of everything, including the human mind and our intellect. Part of our intellect is intelligence, logic, and rationality, which you say are of no use when trying to understand the Bible. I will go a bit farther and say that using these faculties drives many away from the Bible.

Why would god provide these abilities, then use these same abilities to drive people away?

Quote:
There is also a correlation to people becoming saved. Many do so when their circumstances are dire or thru a mental breakdown when there is no one, or nothing else to rely on which has been effective. That's when often thy Great Healer, the creator of our beings and bodies, comes down to do his work.
I agree with you, but I donít think that this is a credit to Christianity. Personally, I find it repulsive that Christians take advantage of people in desperate times. It strikes me as incredibly manipulative. I understand you probably donít view it that way, and conside4 religion to be a benefit in those times of trouble. Just another difference between theists and atheists.
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Old 12-31-2017, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
18,614 posts, read 8,698,684 times
Reputation: 18069
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains View Post
...


I agree with you, but I donít think that this is a credit to Christianity. Personally, I find it repulsive that Christians take advantage of people in desperate times. It strikes me as incredibly manipulative. I understand you probably donít view it that way, and conside4 religion to be a benefit in those times of trouble. Just another difference between theists and atheists.
The target is most often the most needy, not necessarily the most needy in terms of spiritual belief (because one cannot tell that just by looking at someone), but the most needy in terms of hunger, lack of shelter, etc.
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Old 12-31-2017, 10:05 AM
 
Location: Western Washington
7,584 posts, read 7,421,133 times
Reputation: 13198
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
The target is most often the most needy, not necessarily the most needy in terms of spiritual belief (because one cannot tell that just by looking at someone), but the most needy in terms of hunger, lack of shelter, etc.
True, there is a systematic campaign to convert the poor.

There are also opportunistic attempts to convert the emotionally distraught. I am sure most Christians (it has always been Christians in my personal experience) mean well, but their religion has set them up in the role of emotional ghouls.

Many years ago a good friend of mine committed suicide. It was known at work that I was an atheist, as one can only decline so many invitations to go to church before a coworker or three asks if there is a reason why I wonít attend their service. I was obviously distraught, and several people took advantage of my state to push their religion as solace. Similarly, when my father passed away, several people took advantage of the situation to press religion upon me.

I remember these incidents, and while I will openly discuss religion and my beliefs online, I do so rather reluctantly and with care in real life. I NEVER intrude on a personís grief and vulnerability.
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Old 12-31-2017, 10:17 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,070 posts, read 8,488,944 times
Reputation: 6002
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclist1968 View Post
The Bible is believed via Faith from God.
Yes ... it is done by affording belief without a requirement of valid, substantiating evidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclist1968 View Post
You first must have a genuine interest in believing it.
Yes, being willingly credulous of other's asserted truth claims would be the starting point for embracing confirmation bias.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclist1968 View Post
Otherwise it's sorta like that warning tossing pearls to swine

NOT that you are swine but since it isn't intellectually based, meaning based on the finite mind, you really cannot get far.
Yes actually your point IS that we are swine. Don't be bashful. Tell us how you really feel.

Your whole ideology DEPENDS on elevating the failed epistemology of religious faith to a virtue that it is not ... and lowering reason to a vice that it is not. And part of that is to dehumanize the Hated Other -- the one with the temerity to not join you in your conga line. We are swine, angry, rebellious, devious, hateful, licentious, bitter -- always as low as you can label us. So don't be bashful -- you stand in a long proud tradition of demonizers and hate-mongers who nevertheless enjoy carefully cultivated noble self-images. We're used to it. Unlike many of your ilk, we will not whine about how persecuted we are though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclist1968 View Post
(The Bible) is cryptic for a reason, you really need to have your heart in it to unlock what it says.
Of course ... you must want something to BE true more than wanting to actually know what IS true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclist1968 View Post
There is also a correlation to people becoming saved. Many do so when their circumstances are dire or thru a mental breakdown when there is no one, or nothing else to rely on which has been effective. That's when often thy Great Healer, the creator of our beings and bodies, comes down to do his work.
How kind of him to bestow scraps from his table only when we are at the point of starvation. And why would he not, when there are plenty of people such as yourself who will praise him for it.

Speaking only for myself, I came to god as a little child (literally), willingly, when I was not desperate. And that god was absent, indifferent and/or non-existent (what is the practical difference really) when later, after years of faithful service to him and his people, my situation actually WAS desperate.

So do not assume that people such as I know nothing of these matters, or have not tested them. I decided a generation ago that life was too short to be confused, hurt and disappointed and ultimately angry. The way out was to realize that I was not god's special snowflake and that life did not owe me anything. That life just is what it is, rather than some drama with me in a starring role and god as my producer.

That is the irony: I am often characterized as having the very character faults that I have embraced atheism specifically to AVOID. I am at peace now that I understand my true place and my true scope within reality, now that my expectations are grounded IN that reality.
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Old 12-31-2017, 10:32 AM
 
Location: Northern California
436 posts, read 166,570 times
Reputation: 551
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains View Post
I see this as problematic. Allegedly god is the creator of everything, including the human mind and our intellect. Part of our intellect is intelligence, logic, and rationality, which you say are of no use when trying to understand the Bible. I will go a bit farther and say that using these faculties drives many away from the Bible.

Why would god provide these abilities, then use these same abilities to drive people away?
Rationality comes from the created finite mind. Salvation comes from GOD whom created that mind.
So it is a revelation of sorts. Unfolding in his time.

Quote:
I agree with you, but I don’t think that this is a credit to Christianity. Personally, I find it repulsive that Christians take advantage of people in desperate times. It strikes me as incredibly manipulative. I understand you probably don’t view it that way, and conside4 religion to be a benefit in those times of trouble. Just another difference between theists and atheists.
Well if someone has scurvy and you withhold treatment such as eating oranges for the vitamin c, then you are taking advantage of them.

Unbelievers take advantage. Christians can, but it is not of their character since now they are being molded to Christ. People do not like the idea of GOD, they want to be their own GOD thinking they know better than their Creator. It's human nature until God overrides it with the holy spirit
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Old 12-31-2017, 10:53 AM
 
Location: Western Washington
7,584 posts, read 7,421,133 times
Reputation: 13198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclist1968 View Post
Rationality comes from the created finite mind. Salvation comes from GOD whom created that mind.
So it is a revelation of sorts. Unfolding in his time.
This is a deepity. It sounds profound, but doesn’t actually mean anything.


Quote:
Unbelievers take advantage.
How so?

Quote:
Christians can, but it is not of their character since now they are being molded to Christ. People do not like the idea of GOD, they want to be their own GOD thinking they know better than their Creator. It's human nature until God overrides it with the holy spirit
Assertions without proof.
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